• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

HS2 Phase 2a Route Safeguarding Ended

Status
Not open for further replies.

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,071
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Mark Harper has announced the ending of safeguarding for the HS2a route (Handsacre-Crewe).
HS2 Ltd will not object to new planning proposed along the route.
Selling of compulsorily-purchased property along the route will begin "shortly".
An enhanced junction with the WCML at Handsacre is now proposed.

This seems like the buffers for the extension of HS2 beyond Handsacre have been reached.
It seems to me an act of hostility to the rail industry, destroying a decade of expensive planning work for nothing.
A 5-year pause for review of high speed rail policy would have been more sensible.
How "more trains to reach key destinations north of Birmingham", when they will all have funnel through Colwich, is not explained.

Safeguarding is a planning tool used to protect the land needed for the HS2 scheme from potential conflicting development. The safeguarding directions require the local authority to consult with HS2 Ltd on planning applications within the safeguarded land. By lifting safeguarding, the government provides certainty to people along the former route of HS2 and makes development easier, as HS2 Ltd will no longer object to proposed development in the area to which the safeguarding directions had applied.

To allow Phase One of HS2 to connect to the West Coast Main Line I am continuing to safeguard land close to Handsacre. This connection at Handsacre will:
  • allow passengers to travel on HS2 trains through to Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland, joining the West Coast Main Line for the rest of their journeys
  • reduce the journey time between London and Manchester by nearly half an hour (down to 100 minutes), facilitated through an upgrade of Handsacre Junction which will allow more trains to reach key destinations north of Birmingham
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,461
Pathetic. Scorched earth politics by the worst government in modern history
 

hozza94

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2012
Messages
107
Location
London
The safeguarding has ended but they are yet to begin any sales of properties, which are very likely to be challenged in court anyway.
 

Class 800

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2023
Messages
102
Location
London
So that's it. Years and years of challenge and hope and just as things were shaping up, it is being cancelled and every hope of ever seeing it again is gone.

I don't think this APT will ever get its Pendolino
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
655
I wonder what Huw Merriman thinks to this all privately. He's not stupid when it comes to rail so must know that this a ridiculous decision which stops HS2 delivering the transformational change to freight, local, and regional services on the WCML. I suppose he's likely to still be an MP after the next election so doesn't want to rock the boat.
 

may032

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2023
Messages
68
Location
London
Excuse my ignorance but what does this mean in layman’s terms? Does it fundamentally change anything given 2a is still written into law in parliament?
 

hozza94

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2012
Messages
107
Location
London
I wonder what Huw Merriman thinks to this all privately. He's not stupid when it comes to rail so must know that this a ridiculous decision which stops HS2 delivering the transformational change to freight, local, and regional services on the WCML. I suppose he's likely to still be an MP after the next election so doesn't want to rock the boat.
with no phase 2, travelling between Birmingham and Manchester would involve either retaining the existing Cross Country services or creating a new service between the 2 cities which only use the HS2 line between Handscare and Curzon Street. So much for levelling up :|
 

chris2

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2023
Messages
152
Location
Southampton
The govt said it would lift safeguarding on the route ‘within weeks’ when Sunak announced its cancellation. We’re now 3 months on from that, but it doesn’t appear to be substantively different to what we were told would happen.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
Yet another anti-rail decision by the Secretary of State for Roads. I'd be interested to know how this annoucement aligns with Harper's recent declaration of intent to increase freight carried by rail by 75%.
 

Class 800

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2023
Messages
102
Location
London
Yet another anti-rail decision by the Secretary of State for Roads. I'd be interested to know how this annoucement aligns with Harper's recent declaration of intent to increase freight carried by rail by 75%.
I don't get it. We can have passengers traveling up to twice as fast as the motorway, and slow freight is being prioritized for the railways?

They don't want to upgrade, they don't want major new projects, they don't want to electrify.

Remember also that there are no major strategic road projects going on either. There are small localized motorway junction improvements but all capacity upgrades (read: smart motorways) have been cancelled.

I think we need less rail freight, not more. Rail freight usually means slow trains blocking much faster passenger paths, and running diesel under wires.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
I don't get it. We can have passengers traveling up to twice as fast as the motorway, and slow freight is being prioritized for the railways?

They don't want to upgrade, they don't want major new projects, they don't want to electrify.

Remember also that there are no major strategic road projects going on either. There are small localized motorway junction improvements but all capacity upgrades (read: smart motorways) have been cancelled.

I think we need less rail freight, not more. Rail freight usually means slow trains blocking much faster passenger paths, and running diesel under wires.

Huh?

So you want to see freight taken off the rails and moved to road transport instead, to give more paths for fast passenger trains? I'm not sure that opinion aligns with environmental concerns and net-zero aspirations. The whole point of HS2 is/was to move some fast trains off existing routes to free up more capacity on those routes for local stopping trains and freight, potentially removing thousands of HGVs from UK roads as a result.

And as I understand it, expansion of 'Smart Motorways' (a misnomer if ever I heard one) has been binned more in reaction to public opinion than anything else. They are considered by many to be downright dangerous. You also fail to mention the £8.3 Billion of funding previously allocated to HS2 which has been diverted instead to the road network in the UK for resurfacing work.
 

Arkeeos

Member
Joined
18 May 2022
Messages
293
Location
Nottinghamshire
Very very very transparently scorched earth, also selling of land to begin "shortly" There's still compulsory purchase powers?

Crossrail 2 has safeguarding still.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,728
"Enhanced Handsacre", no, its dusting off the original plan that got descoped for cost. I am also led to believe that the 2A bill removed some of the limits of deviation to actually build the fast line connection!
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
3,251
Location
Over The Hill
I think we need less rail freight, not more. Rail freight usually means slow trains blocking much faster passenger paths, and running diesel under wires.
If you want to be genuinely green then you actually need the exact opposite approach, namely finding ways to encourage all people to simply travel less, whether by road or rail, thereby releasing capacity for freight movements. Of course you can't expect any sort of coherent policy or strategy from the current collection of clowns in government: on the one hand they don't want to reduce people's freedom, including mobility, on the other they're also uninterested in providing the capacity needed to maintain that freedom. Instead they simply let things get more expensive so that the less well off can't afford to exercise their freedoms. Feudalism 21st century style.
 

Class 800

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2023
Messages
102
Location
London
Huh?

So you want to see freight taken off the rails and moved to road transport instead, to give more paths for fast passenger trains? I'm not sure that opinion aligns with environmental concerns and net-zero aspirations. The whole point of HS2 is/was to move some fast trains off existing routes to free up more capacity on those routes for local stopping trains and freight, potentially removing thousands of HGVs from UK roads as a result.

And as I understand it, expansion of 'Smart Motorways' (a misnomer if ever I heard one) has been binned more in reaction to public opinion than anything else. They are considered by many to be downright dangerous. You also fail to mention the £8.3 Billion of funding previously allocated to HS2 which has been diverted instead to the road network in the UK for resurfacing work.

Sorry - I admit I am more than a little annoyed to see the safeguarding get released for real.

I am on similar forums with a lot of the road community, and the general consensus is that cost, rather than safety, is the main reason these "managed motorway" (to use the older, more logical name) projects are being cancelled without replacement. It is perfectly possible to rescope the projects that were planned, in order to deliver capacity improvements in a safer way to the motorway stretches most desperately in need of it.

I've realized it's the same for HS2 - it was entirely possible to rescope it rather than scrap perhaps the most important part of it.

The resurfacing - while it is needed I think it is pathetic to take money away from flagship infrastructure projects to spend on small, localized improvements that deliver a net benefit orders of magnitude lower.

I didn't phrase my previous post so well - instead of "we need less rail freight" what I should have said, was "we need to ensure that, especially with new lines like HS2 being axed, a huge increase in freight does not impinge on passenger paths or journey times".

Additionally, rail freight can only be considered sustainable when it is not running diesel under the wires.

ETCS, when it eventually comes in, will solve some of this, but the number of paths it will free up will be limited, at least without Level 3 Moving Block.
 

350401

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2009
Messages
307
This is disappointing but was widely expected and to be honest, has been priced into current industry expectations re phase 2a. Compulsory purchase powers remain live until February 2026 and can be extended on a yearly basis for 5 years. Also, despite the wording, it is highly unlikely any land will be sold off before the GE - 1) the land is still subject to compulsory purchase powers until 2026 2) A lot land needs to be remediated and made safe, 3) the market cannot be flooded - only a small amount can be sold at once to avoid a dilution in value and 4) It needs to be offered to the original owners first, albeit at the current market price.

In short, it’s a disappointing turn of events, but not unexpected and doesn’t prevent a new government reinstating 2a. If/when the land sales start; that’s when to get worried.

In another minor point; yes, ERTMS is being considered as a mitigation.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,728
In another minor point; yes level 3 ERTMS is being considered by NR as a mitigation.
Level 2 will be, 3 certainly won't be. I doubt NW&C could deliver two concurrent ETCS schemes on the same region either, so either one of Preston, Carlisle or Warrington gets binned or kicked way into the future.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
9,413
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
An enhanced junction with the WCML at Handsacre is now proposed.

This seems like the buffers for the extension of HS2 beyond Handsacre have been reached.
It seems to me an act of hostility to the rail industry, destroying a decade of expensive planning work for nothing.
A 5-year pause for review of high speed rail policy would have been more sensible.
Absolutely agree. It would then put the ball squarely in a (presumably) incoming Labour governments court and given breathing space.

This to me is scorched earth policy and spineless vindictiveness towards the railway industry.

Pathetic. Scorched earth politics by the worst government in modern history
 

350401

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2009
Messages
307
Level 2 will be, 3 certainly won't be. I doubt NW&C could deliver two concurrent ETCS schemes on the same region either, so either one of Preston, Carlisle or Warrington gets binned or kicked way into the future.
Ahh okay, it makes sense, especially with capacity issues, but is disappointing. I’m not a signalling engineer so probably have misinterpreted what I heard on the grapevine.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
4,898
Location
Somerset
I am on similar forums with a lot of the road community, and the general consensus is that cost, rather than safety, is the main reason these "managed motorway" (to use the older, more logical name) projects are being cancelled without replacement.
Expensive projects that are publicly unpopular on the grounds of safety (whether true or not) must be the answer to the bean-counters’ prayers. That said, I’d vote for anyone who promised to restore the continuous hard shoulder to every motorway….
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,071
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Excuse my ignorance but what does this mean in layman’s terms? Does it fundamentally change anything given 2a is still written into law in parliament?
The parliamentary approval for Phase 2a is now in the deep freeze, and no money will be spent on it - presumably its powers will expire in due course.
Once sell-off starts, it will be dead as a dodo.
The Phase 2b Bill (Crewe-Manchester, still going through parliament) will be cut back to what is needed for the NPR project (Liverpool-Hull), if the northern politicians can agree on a route (which seems unlikely).
 

Kingston Dan

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2020
Messages
293
Location
N Yorks
Yet another anti-rail decision by the Secretary of State for Roads. I'd be interested to know how this annoucement aligns with Harper's recent declaration of intent to increase freight carried by rail by 75%.
Harper is an utter dickhead and I hope he loses his seat - in fact I'm thinking of donating to the most likely opponent in the Forest of Dean (presumably Labour) to try an unseat him and wipe the smug grin off his perma-tanned coupon. Anyone for a crowd funder?
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,959
What they've 'removed' is a requirement for local authorities to have the land designated as HS2 so in the local plan which local authorities create they are free to designate HS2 land for other uses.

However, HS2 still owns the land, still has compulsory purchase rights (until 2026, or until revoked in Parliament), and is still allowed to build the railway there.

I'd expect many planners to leave a convenient HS2 gap, for example, Cheshire East Council has a lot to gain out of HS2 going through Crewe and will want to leave space incase it gets brought back.

TLDR the important bits around ownership haven't changed, local authorities are just allowed to draw lines on paper.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
I laughed at the Conservative Sir Gavin, the South Staffordshire MP’s comments, ‘we welcome the axing of HS2, our number one priority with the money is a new line between Manchester and Staffordshire’.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,178
ETCS, when it eventually comes in, will solve some of this, but the number of paths it will free up will be limited, at least without Level 3 Moving Block.
Given that the transition to ETCS Level 2 is years behind schedule (and that's only taking the East Coast Main Line into account), I wouldn't hold my breath!
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,959
I laughed at the Conservative Sir Gavin, the South Staffordshire MP’s comments, ‘we welcome the axing of HS2, our number one priority with the money is a new line between Manchester and Staffordshire’.
Gavin Williamson has been weirdly anti-HS2 but pro-new rail line. Seems far easier to me to be pro HS2 and campaign for a station in Stoke-On-Trent (population 250k) instead of Crewe (population 55k).

He also voted for this phase of HS2 in 2019
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,691
I laughed at the Conservative Sir Gavin, the South Staffordshire MP’s comments, ‘we welcome the axing of HS2, our number one priority with the money is a new line between Manchester and Staffordshire’.
Well HS2 Phase 2A is pretty terrible in that respect given that none of the HS2 proposed stations are actually in Staffordshire.

It is absolutely no use for people who want better journeys from Staffordshire to Manchester.
Indeed HS2 Phase 2A may hurt Stoke by forcing all the Manchester trains to route via Crewe to make any use of it.
 

Arkeeos

Member
Joined
18 May 2022
Messages
293
Location
Nottinghamshire
I laughed at the Conservative Sir Gavin, the South Staffordshire MP’s comments, ‘we welcome the axing of HS2, our number one priority with the money is a new line between Manchester and Staffordshire’.
What's even the problem with the current stoke to Manchester line?

Indeed HS2 Phase 2A may hurt Stoke by forcing all the Manchester trains to route via Crewe to make any use of it.
All the manchester trains?
 
Last edited:

Danfilm007

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2015
Messages
325
"Enhanced Handsacre", no, its dusting off the original plan that got descoped for cost. I am also led to believe that the 2A bill removed some of the limits of deviation to actually build the fast line connection!

Where's the design?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top