Hybrid HST livery; original plus InterCity

[Peter Mugridge]

I am wondering how many power cars received the hybrid livery where the original blue and yellow gave way to the InterCity livery at the back? Two examples here from St Pancras back on 29th June 1985; 43057 at the buffers and 43039 entering the station.

Please excuse the slightly blurry images - they are scanned from matt prints.

 

[GusB]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "hybrid" livery - in both these cases, aren't the power cars in the original "InterCity" (Executive?) livery?

 

[Far north 37]

I am wondering how many power cars received the hybrid livery where the original blue and yellow gave way to the InterCity livery at the back? Two examples here from St Pancras back on 29th June 1985; 43057 at the buffers and 43039 entering the station.

Please excuse the slightly blurry images - they are scanned from matt prints.

View attachment 39801 View attachment 39802

Never ever seen that livery before wonder if it was actually a proposed livery or actually highlighting the transition from old to new.

 

[Far north 37]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "hybrid" livery - in both these cases, aren't the power cars in the original "InterCity" (Executive?) livery?

No the yellow stripe on the bottom at the front looks like the original blue grey yellow 125 livery as built.

 

[GusB]

No the yellow stripe on the bottom at the front looks like the original blue grey yellow 125 livery as built.

Yes, but that was part of the original InterCity livery on the HST. It was only when they introduced the INTERCITY (Swallow) livery that this bit was replaced with white. It was a standard livery for a while, I'm sure. Happy to be corrected, though.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes this was the standard livery as applied from 1985 to 1987/88. Most, if not all, power cars received it.

 

[GusB]

I've done a bit of Googling and this particular thread sprang up:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-blue-to-swallow.101590/

Post #7 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-blue-to-swallow.101590/#post-1814163 has a link to this photograph:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/7272237276/
Is this the "hybrid" to which you refer, @Peter Mugridge ?

 

[Helvellyn]

Indeed, InterCity Executive for the HSTs was based on the original "flying banana" style, with the upper blue band swapped out for the Executive Drak grey. Also the continuation of the white band between the yellow and grey.

The first two power cars treated (I want to say 43026/43027) didn't have the executive grey diagonal over the radiator grill, but it was quickly shown to be a dirt trap hence the change (on the original livery it was a a BR blue diagonal that neatly switched the blue from the lower bodyside to become an upper body blue band with the warning yellow from the front end extended back).

When InterCity Swallow was introduced the lower yellow bodyside on the power car was switched out for the silver grey used on locomotives, with the lighter (fawn?) grey used on coaches remaining on the lower part of the bodyside behind the radiator (i.e. the luggage van). The red stripe was, however, added ahead of the radiator grill which was fine except that the light/horn cluster partially cut into it when extended across the cab front. I personally think a cleaner solution could have been found stopping the red stripe short of the cab (Class 91 style).

As to how many power cars carried InterCity Executive I don't know the exact figure but it wasn't the whole fleet. A number of power cars went straight from the original blue to InterCity Swallow colours.

 

[Cowley]

From what I remember the HSTs started being painted in what we used to call ‘Original Intercity livery’ (actually Intercity Executive livery) in the mid 80s. Maybe about 1983/84? That’s the scheme pictured in the photos.
In about 1987 this was then superseded by ‘Intercity Swallow livery’ which is the scheme 43185 is currently painted in.

The original Intercity livery followed the original blue, grey and yellow livery in that it had the same area of yellow as before that wrapped around the front and along the sides as shown.
Some power cars lasted like this for quite a while but I’m not sure when the last one received (perhaps when it went through works?) the updated ‘Swallow’ livery.

Power cars were swapped about a fair bit and it wasn’t unusual in the late 80s to have one power car in Swallow, one in original Intercity and the coaches in between in blue and grey or indeed other combinations until the whole fleet were painted in Swallow which I’m pretty certain eventually happened.

I remember someone saying to me as an HST arrived in Exeter some time around 1988/89 maybe? That it was the last rake of coaches in blue and grey.

I remember on here having a discussion about whether all three liveries of power car were ever lined up together but I don’t think any of them lasted in blue and grey after spring 1987 unless anyone knows any different?

God I enjoy a bit of 1980s paint wibble...

 

[Far north 37]

I've done a bit of Googling and this particular thread sprang up:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-blue-to-swallow.101590/

Post #7 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-blue-to-swallow.101590/#post-1814163 has a link to this photograph:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/7272237276/

Is this the "hybrid" to which you refer, @Peter Mugridge ?

Ah ok guys the front doesn't look to dissimilar from the old livery although the blue was a lot brighter than the black was the branding the same though.

 

[Cowley]

Oh yeah and what Gus and Helvellyn said (I knew that would happen while I typed all that out).

 

[Far north 37]

Theres not many liveries they haven't suited the hsts.
classic british train got to be one of the best built in the country for the job its done.

 

[GusB]

I had hoped to actually embed that image in my post, but I couldn't get it to work for some reason. I have to say, I've never seen that livery application before. I'm not sure if it's the gloss finish that makes it look black, or whether it is actually black, but the shade used in production was a dark grey (was it not officially called "Executive dark grey"?) , and to me looked almost brownish. Similarly the "light grey" used on the lower bodysides always looked more beige than grey, although this might have been a bit of an optical illusion (I was more used to seeing the Scotrail Express livery as applied to the 47/7-DBSO sets).

 

[Helvellyn]

Okay, got my power cars wrong for the first two to get Executive livery - it was 43125/43126 along with their trailers (253028). I think this set also gained IC80 seating in a prototype refurbishment, at least in First Class.

A quick Google search produces a Hornby model to illustrate the prototype application of the APT livery:

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L205180-LN-01_3106947_Qty1_ruler.jpg

You can then see how it was amended for production painting:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2015/post-7247-0-41783300-1427404038.jpg

I'll not get onto all the 'Swallow' livery variations.

Oh, the linked photo of the black/blue power car is 43002 in the original proposed livery, I believe at a Crewe Works open day. Glad that livery never made it into production!

 

[theblackwatch]

The first two power cars treated (I want to say 43026/43027) didn't have the executive grey diagonal over the radiator grill, but it was quickly shown to be a dirt trap hence the change (on the original livery it was a a BR blue diagonal that neatly switched the blue from the lower bodyside to become an upper body blue band with the warning yellow from the front end extended back).

You're thinking of the first 2 sets to be treated (253028 and 253030, with power cars 43125/126 and 43129/130, with 43151 done as a spare). These were done in 1983, a couple of years before the rest of the HSTs started appearing in that colour, with the revision you mentioned. There were a couple of other subtle changes too, such as the lighter grey extending further up the roof on the coaches and guards area of the power cars on the original repaints.

 

[Far north 37]

 

[Far north 37]

Thats as close as i can find on a loco

 

[Cowley]

Okay, got my power cars wrong for the first two to get Executive livery - it was 43125/43126 along with their trailers (253028). I think this set also gained IC80 seating in a prototype refurbishment, at least in First Class.

A quick Google search produces a Hornby model to illustrate the prototype application of the APT livery:

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L205180-LN-01_3106947_Qty1_ruler.jpg

You can then see how it was amended for production painting:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2015/post-7247-0-41783300-1427404038.jpg

I'll not get onto all the 'Swallow' livery variations.

Oh, the linked photo of the black/blue power car is 43002 in the original proposed livery, I believe at a Crewe Works open day. Glad that livery never made it into production!

Very interesting, especially the ‘might have beens’.
I don’t know if I’ve got this right but I seem to remember that 43125/43126 used to work the important named trains like The Mayflower when they were just painted?

 

[Cowley]

View attachment 39805

Mmm. I just had a moment seeing that.
There were lots of 47s in Executive livery along with numerous 73s,86s and 87s (87s looked great in it) as well as 83012 and 89001 when it was new.
The first 47s in that scheme were 47487 (the first actually) and 47406 which I have this model of

(Is my photo!)

 

[GusB]

Power cars were swapped about a fair bit and it wasn’t unusual in the late 80s to have one power car in Swallow, one in original Intercity and the coaches in between in blue and grey or indeed other combinations until the whole fleet were painted in Swallow which I’m pretty certain eventually happened.

My aunt moved to Musselburgh around the time that they were changing over to the "Swallow" livery, and I certainly recall seeing HST sets with an "Executive" power car at one end, a "Swallow" power car at the other, and a blue/grey set of coaches inbetween, along with various other combinations. I don't recall ever seeing any train that matched; something which offends my sense of order slightly!

There was one further complication, not applicable to HSTs, but to other locos, and that was "Mainline" livery - essentially the same as InterCity "Executive" livery, but with the light "grey" and red/white stripes extended to the front of the loco. I don't recall these having "InterCity" branding, though. So much for the unified BR corporate image!

 

[Far north 37]

Yes certainly looked good on other locos too i mind the first time i seen it made a change from just seeing br blue and large logo engines although i think the rail freight grey might have been creeping in at the same time.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Golly - that's a lot of response... in summary, yes I think my two pictures are of Executive livery; I don't have many because it was a rather short term interim livery before Swallow came out; question does remain how many power cars received the livery?

Bit busy this afternoon - I'll check back later. You'll have to excuse me if the answer's in one of the linked threads someone posted above!

 

[Cowley]

This may help.
In my nedtastic 1987 Platform 5 book here...

It has a picture of the new Swallow livery painted on 43051 on the back here...



It unhelpfully lists all the power cars in both variations of Intercity as just ‘I’ for Intercity (in my 1990 book it has ‘I’ for Swallow and ‘IO for Executive), but going on the date the book came out there must have only been a handful painted that way by then (photo taken 30/04/87).
So of the rest of the 43s all bar 43018, 43020, 43088, 43090, 43102, 43171, 43172 and 43179 are listed as Intercity in early summer 1987 when it was compiled. The above listed ones were still in standard blue and yellow when the book was produced if it was accurate.

 

[47271]

I have a fact that may be helpful to this thread.

My dad has a photo of the very first east coast full set just outshopped in Executive colours passing Cupar in March 1985 - so both power cars and all mk3s. And very smart and shiny it looks too.

 

[Cowley]

I have a fact that may be helpful to this thread.

My dad has a photo of the very first east coast full set just outshopped in Executive colours passing Cupar in March 1985 - so both power cars and all mk3s. And very smart and shiny it looks too.

I’d love to see that.
Speaking of Dads, I was with my Dad the first time I saw one in Executive livery, we were crossing the bridge at Countess Wear near Exeter in his company car Ford Escort and saw a set passing underneath with a power car painted in Executive on blue and grey stock heading west.
It was quite a moment seeing something other than an APT painted in those colours ‘in the flesh’ as it were...

It’s interesting to note that when the 73/9s were on crew training duties last year in Scotland the set that went to Oban had an Intercity liveried coach in the consist which kept a link from the APT-P first running in 1979 (ish?) in the livery to this train in 2016 (37 years later), and alongside that we had 47828 appearing at the Severn Valley diesel gala in Intercity Swallow livery in 2017 as a ‘heritage’ train with matching mk2s...

(Not my photo because I was a passenger on it ).
Love a bit of paint wibble me...