I am horrified at how strict the rail operators are

[Seehof]

Am I the only person on here who takes the view that the TOCs including TFL are far too strict and merciless when simple mistakes are made? Some of these “just expired railcard mistakes” or “taking different trains because of unreliability“ cases are appalling and the traveller should not be fined/prosecuted.
Firstly, the ticketing system is a minefield and even I managed to book a wrong ticket from York to Leeds on the system the other day and I am retired railwayman!
Secondly, the railway is not 100 per cent reliable and most people are cynical and mistrustful of services. This leads to making what might appear to be irrational and hasty decisions.
Lastly, and most important of all, we all make mistakes. Young people can be particularly “scatter brained” and forgetting their keys, leaving lights on etc. To give you a classic example of my stepson, after I had parked my car (we had gone to the Yorkshire Dales for a walk) he returned to it to get his water bottle. Upon returning after a long walk we found he had left the car door wide open! Not a thing was taken luckily!!
We are all human but the railway companies take the view that the humblest mistake should be punished. I know there is a lot of deliberate fare evasion but clearly some people on here deserve leniency. I am surprised that the media has not picked up on this because I do think there is a lot of injustices taking place. What do others think?

 

[signed]

Money, sweet money is very likely a very big part in that, even on the prosecution side.

+ For the ticketing in my opinion it's more of a *if it ain't broke don't fix it* in their opinion (and their fix is the disastrous LNER trial)

 

[methecooldude]

Am I the only person on here who takes the view that the TOCs including TFL are far too strict and merciless when simple mistakes are made? Some of these “just expired railcard mistakes” or “taking different trains because of unreliability“ cases are appalling and the traveller should not be fined/prosecuted.

It depends where you draw the line between "simple mistakes" and "deliberate"

Firstly, the ticketing system is a minefield and even I managed to book a wrong ticket from York to Leeds on the system the other day and I am retired railwayman!

The problem is, as far as a guard myself, is that a sizeable chunk of people do not read what they are buying, and this is not a 'hidden in the terms', I'm talking Advance tickets when they think they are buying an open one. They would have been told 'Specified Trains Only'.

We are all human but the railway companies take the view that the humblest mistake should be punished. I know there is a lot of deliberate fare evasion but clearly some people on here deserve leniency. I am surprised that the media has not picked up on this because I do think there is a lot of injustices taking place. What do others think?

Again, where does the line get drawn. Now look, if you show me an expired railcard that ran out that week, I'll ask you "Do you have ability to renew it right now", if you answer yes, I will expect you to do so and that will be the end of it. However, if your railcard is a few months out (yes, I've had it, even a year) then sorry, you should have checked. If your railcard is way out of date and I check your 'My Bookings' and see loads of journeys between the expiry date and today, it's a Ticket Irregularity Report for you.

 

[skyhigh]

We are all human but the railway companies take the view that the humblest mistake should be punished.

A reminder that nobody comes on here to post for advice because they've been given the benefit of the doubt or shown discretion, and no newspaper would run a story saying someone simply got charged an excess fare.

Yes, on balance the railway is probably too strict, but you don't get the full picture from here or the media.

 

[RPI]

The "greedy train company" narrative doesn't wash, every penny of revenue goes straight to the treasury, and has for the past three or four years.

The problem is that the railway is a huge open system, massively open to abuse, many people take advantage of that. There has to be a deterrent, as someone else said, people don't come on here when they have been shown discretion or given the benefit of the doubt

A "forgot to renew Railcard" can mean hundreds or thousands of pounds lost revenue if they have "forgotten" for a long period of time.

The ticketing system is a minefield I'll agree, but that's why Penalty Fares cannot be issued for wrong route/restricted ticket, or anything other than an excess fare.

Advance tickets are probably the most un-complicated tickets that exist, it's quite simple, it's valid on one, booked train as stated on the ticket (and the booked connections).

Some TOC's are more rogue than others, interestingly, two of the TOC's that are more prone to being excessive in their approach are government run.

 

[AlterEgo]

A "forgot to renew Railcard" can mean hundreds or thousands of pounds lost revenue if they have "forgotten" for a long period of time.

If they still qualify it’s only £30 of lost revenue.

The ticketing system is a minefield I'll agree, but that's why Penalty Fares cannot be issued for wrong route/restricted ticket, or anything other than an excess fare.

Thank you for agreeing with this point at least!

 

[Skymonster]

It’s impossible to tell whether someone has made a mistake - or whether they have seen what they think is an opportunity to pay less than necessary and are trying to exploit it (be that an expired railcard, advance used on the wrong train, etc). Being lenient to “honest“ mistakes just opens a door for others to cheat the system. It is also unjust in my opinion to let some folk off and yet penalty fare / report others - for the same infraction. And personal responsibility comes into it too - people need to read the terms and conditions, understand them, remain aware of them, and abide by

A few year ago I parked in an area where there was no fee before a certain time. As I walked back to my car I saw a warden ticketing it. I ran up to the warden and asked what the hell they were doing - quite loudly, but not aggressively, because I knew I was back before the fees applied. The warden told me I had not paid. It was then I looked at the sign again and realised it was no charge before 08:00, not no charge before 09:00. And it was 08:45. Genuine error on my part, I misread the sign. As soon as I realised, I apologised profusely, accepted the parking ticket and we parted on good terms - albeit that I had to pay the fine. Same with train tickets - if a passenger gets it wrong whether through genuine error or deliberate evasion, as soon as they are caught they should accept they’re wrong and accept the punishment.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s impossible to tell whether someone has made a mistake - or whether they have seen what they think is an opportunity to pay less than necessary and are trying to exploit it (be that an expired railcard, advance used on the wrong train, etc). Being lenient to “honest“ mistakes just opens a door for others to cheat the system. It is also unjust in my opinion to let some folk off and yet penalty fare / report others - for the same infraction. And personal responsibility comes into it too - people need to read the terms and conditions, understand them, remain aware of them, and abide by

A few year ago I parked in an area where there was no fee before a certain time. As I walked back to my car I saw a warden ticketing it. I ran up to the warden and asked what the hell they were doing - quite loudly, but not aggressively, because I knew I was back before the fees applied. The warden told me I had not paid. It was then I looked at the sign again and realised it was no charge before 08:00, not no charge before 09:00. And it was 08:45. Genuine error on my part, I misread the sign. As soon as I realised, I apologised profusely, accepted the parking ticket and we parted on good terms - albeit that I had to pay the fine. Same with train tickets - if a passenger gets it wrong whether through genuine error or deliberate evasion, as soon as they are caught they should accept they’re wrong and accept the punishment.

Would you have accepted the warden rescinding the notice and instead insisting on prosecuting you for the offence in the magistrates’ court? Would cost you about £500 and a criminal record.

 

[Kenny G]

Where there has been regular "doughnutting" then prosecutions should result. Where it is a case of one off out of date railcards or advance ticket used on the wrong train then a stringent penalty fares seem appropriate. I do get the impression youngsters are given less leniency than older folk but that may be incorrect.

 

[Alex C.]

Decriminalise the bylaws, continue with penalty fares. The TOCS can use the court system to pursue significant cases of evasion (I would prefer for this to be handed over to BTP though). At the very least, remove the strict liability component.

If I have a dispute with a parking company then they can take me to court. I can then make my argument with the judge - if they accept it, great, nothing to pay - but they key thing is that if I lose the case, I can pay the sum due and have no impact on me beyond the financial sanction.

If I was being prosecuted for a railway offence, taking that option is incredibly risky, even if I am 100% certain of my innocence - if the judge disagrees with me, I have a criminal record which needs to be disclosed in my industry and could cause significant problems with employment - so if a TOC ever tries to prosecute me, really, I have no option but to pay the sum they demand. They know this and we see cases on here which are essentially extortion that would not be possible if they had to actually make an argument about the losses they've suffered in court.

 

[Par]

Advance tickets are a problem in my view, not the principle, but the use of the word “Advance”. Yes, there are chancers who will attempt to use their ticket on a service it isn’t valid on, thus attempting to use it as a de-facto open, but also some who genuinely believe it to be open but because they bought it before the day of travel, they interpret that as “Advance”. Better to use something like “Fixed Time” or a variant thereof for that type of ticket.

 

[Harpo]

There needs to be a better filter between fraud and honest mistakes.

For those with an error or lack of railcard on a whole journey ticket, a more measured approach might be:

Provide a valid ID, pay the difference, send a ‘no action this time’ warning letter. A ‘guide to fares’ leaflet with the letter would seem sensible.

Fail to provide any ID, or provide repeat ID for a second ‘error’, prosecute.

 

[Mawkie]

I am surprised that the media has not picked up on this because I do think there is a lot of injustices taking place.

The BBC had an article yesterday about confusing ticketing.

Despite what the name suggests, an Anytime train ticket does not always mean you can travel on the railway at any time - if you're using a young person's railcard.

Engineering graduate Sam Williamson discovered that earlier this week, when a train company told him he could face criminal prosecution for incorrectly using a ticket which cost him £1.90 less than it should have done.

 

[Kenny G]

The BBC had an article yesterday about confusing ticketing.

I agree with a lot of what has been said. It is the disproportionate response and lack of passing the public interest test in some of these cases that starts to grate. They wouldn't pass the CPS Code for Prosecutors so why do TOC's feel able to either prosecute or for that matter threaten to prosecute and then extort substantial sums from people who are desperate to avoid the consequences of a conviction?

 

[RJ]

Every time I see a thread like this, it should be remembered that it works both ways - discretion is often shown and people do get away with travelling without a valid ticket sometimes. If there is no enforcement, for some people there’s no incentive to ensure a valid ticket is held.

 

[Haywain]

Every time I see a thread like this, it should be remembered that it works both ways - discretion is often shown and people do get away with travelling without a valid ticket sometimes.

Indeed, and that happens far more often than reading this forum would suggest.

 

[30907]

I have changed my mind on this, having been less than sympathetic to railcard users ignoring restrictions up to now.

Tentative suggestion (generous/less generous versions, and only if there is no other irregularity):
1. Discounted Anytime used before 10am - new undiscounted ticket, no further action (trawling...). Or a PF, no further action.
2. Expired railcard which can be evidenced on the spot - and no more than one month over date. Same two options.

However:
3. No evidence of railcard - TIR with the option to submit proof as now.
4. Wrong railcard chosen - TIR leading to investigation.

Thoughts, especially from on-board staff

 

[Fullers1995]

It depends where you draw the line between "simple mistakes" and "deliberate"


The problem is, as far as a guard myself, is that a sizeable chunk of people do not read what they are buying, and this is not a 'hidden in the terms', I'm talking Advance tickets when they think they are buying an open one. They would have been told 'Specified Trains Only'.


Again, where does the line get drawn. Now look, if you show me an expired railcard that ran out that week, I'll ask you "Do you have ability to renew it right now", if you answer yes, I will expect you to do so and that will be the end of it. However, if your railcard is a few months out (yes, I've had it, even a year) then sorry, you should have checked. If your railcard is way out of date and I check your 'My Bookings' and see loads of journeys between the expiry date and today, it's a Ticket Irregularity Report for you.

Quite agree on the railcard bit. I got shown one yesterday that expired December 2023. She asked if I could just let her off. I’m always first to try and help genuine mistakes, but there has to be a line, you’ve got to take some self responsibility for reading what tickets and railcards you’ve got.

 

[GardenRail]

Its human nature to say something was a mistake, when one gets caught.....

 

[methecooldude]

I have changed my mind on this, having been less than sympathetic to railcard users ignoring restrictions up to now.

Tentative suggestion (generous/less generous versions, and only if there is no other irregularity):
1. Discounted Anytime used before 10am - new undiscounted ticket, no further action (trawling...). Or a PF, no further action.
2. Expired railcard which can be evidenced on the spot - and no more than one month over date. Same two options.

However:
3. No evidence of railcard - TIR with the option to submit proof as now.
4. Wrong railcard chosen - TIR leading to investigation.

Thoughts, especially from on-board staff

I think those are reasonable, however in relation to Wrong Railcard chosen, I personally give a little bit of flexibility to those switching from a 16-17 Saver to a 16-25 Railcard, as long as they haven't had the 16-25 for a decent amount of time, I normally give words of advice there and switch the railcard for them on their app if they are willing to let me do so

 

[simonw]

Would you have accepted the warden rescinding the notice and instead insisting on prosecuting you for the offence in the magistrates’ court? Would cost you about £500 and a criminal record.

But TFL to oneside, prosecution by the railway is in 99% of cases only because the passenger doesn't accept and pay the penalty, or is found to be a repeat offender.

 

[BingMan]

The problem is that the railway is a huge open system, massively open to abuse, many people take advantage of that. There has to be a deterrent, as someone else said, people don't come on here when they have been shown discretion or given the benefit of the doubt

Checking every ticket is a far better deterrent than large penalty fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4. Wrong railcard chosen - TIR leading to investigation.

Anything at all where the fare for what has been done is the same as that for what should have been done should involve no action at all. Always

Doing otherwise is just petty.

 

[Skymonster]

Would you have accepted the warden rescinding the notice and instead insisting on prosecuting you for the offence in the magistrates’ court? Would cost you about £500 and a criminal record.

It is what it is - if you can’t stand the time don’t do the crime. Personal responsibility, understanding the rules, and acceptance of the punishment if you transgress. Sadly these days everyone seems to be self-entitled while not taking responsibility.

 

[AlterEgo]

But TFL to oneside, prosecution by the railway is in 99% of cases only because the passenger doesn't accept and pay the penalty, or is found to be a repeat offender.

That is true, but parking tickets are fixed penalties with formal ways to appeal, instead of threats to prosecute under the criminal law with no appeal process. And if you forget to pay, or the post goes to the wrong place, you don’t get a criminal record and £500 to pay. The worst case is almost always a CCJ.

It is what it is - if you can’t stand the time don’t do the crime. Personal responsibility, understanding the rules, and acceptance of the punishment if you transgress. Sadly these days everyone seems to be self-entitled while not taking responsibility.

What if you got sentenced to death for ticket irregularities?

Obvious that’s a daft question. No this is a question of proportionality as you well know, so your argument can only be taken as one that this sort of thing is proportional to the offence.

Which other sort of minor civil wrongs should routinely criminalise people, that we haven’t already got some lovely Victorian legislation for? Happy to hear them!

 

[cool110]

Which other sort of minor civil wrongs should routinely criminalise people, that we haven’t already got some lovely Victorian legislation for? Happy to hear them!

Bus lane contraventions, should have points as well as a fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

Bus lane contraventions, should have points as well as a fine.

So that’s already an offence. Next.

 

[The exile]

It depends where you draw the line between "simple mistakes" and "deliberate"

Especially since between those two there is a large territory marked “negligent”.

 

[greyman42]

Indeed, and that happens far more often than reading this forum would suggest.

Yes, good news stories are rarely reported.

 

[The exile]

Yes, good news stories are rarely reported.

Not to mention the countless occasions where it’s never put to the test because no ticket check occurs.