ICI Hoppers and Loco combinations

[high camera]

Hi All

I have recently been looking at YouTube videos and photos of the Tunstead - Northwich ICI hopper trains (They used to run past my bedroom window !!)

I remember them hauled by solitary Class 25s in the 70s

More recent videos/photos show pairs of 20s and pairs of 37s, what was the reason for double heading ?

Were the 25s very powerful or the 20s and 37s very unreliable ?

 

[Bevan Price]

Hi All

I have recently been looking at YouTube videos and photos of the Tunstead - Northwich ICI hopper trains (They used to run past my bedroom window !!)

I remember them hauled by solitary Class 25s in the 70s

More recent videos/photos show pairs of 20s and pairs of 37s, what was the reason for double heading ?

Were the 25s very powerful or the 20s and 37s very unreliable ?

The trains hauled by 25s were much shorter than the trains later headed by 37s, and then Class 60s.
And before the 25s, they had previously been worked by Stanier 8F 2-8-0s.

 

[high camera]

That makes sense and yes I have very vague memories of the steam locos, mainly because my mother complained about the smoke making her washing dirty !

 

[Cowley]

That makes sense and yes I have very vague memories of the steam locos, mainly because my mother complained about the smoke making her washing dirty !

Just to give you a rough idea about diesel locomotive horsepower.
20s - 1000hp (usually ran in pairs though)
25s - 1250hp
37s - 1750hp

So a single 25 was not a particularly powerful loco, although I believe they could take a fair amount of ‘stick’.

 

[high camera]

What was the HP of 40s 47s and 60s just out of interest please

 

[Irascible]

40: 2000, 47: 2580(?) and 60: 3100 I think. Tractive effort depends on gearing too.

 

[high camera]

60s are a bit of beast then !, no wonder they have been reprieved.

 

[Sun Chariot]

So a single 25 was not a particularly powerful loco, although I believe they could take a fair amount of ‘stick’.

When Tamworth Castle was having its main line swansong, it put in some fine haulage. I saw it at Leeds, doing an S&C run - albeit with ETH 47422 tucked behind. YouTube,, I recently saw a clip of Tamworth Castle taking 10 Mk1s unassisted. The noise was sublime!

And back in 1984, my school's "activities day" included the Carlisle to Leeds route (take a bow, headmaster!). Our booked loco, 31/4, failed near Dent and we were eventually rescued by a 25/1.
Dark, wet, windy. Musty Mk1 compartment. But it didn't matter, because the Rat's driver had it wide open - and the biblical racket must have been heard for miles! Bliss.

 

[Cowley]

When Tamworth Castle was having its main line swansong, it put in some fine haulage. I saw it at Leeds, doing an S&C run - albeit with an ETH 47 tucked behind. YouTube,, I recently saw a clip of Tamworth Castle taking 10 Mk1s unassisted. The noise was sublime!

And back in 1984, my school's "activities day" included the Carlisle to Leeds route (take a bow, headmaster!). Our booked loco, 31/4, failed near Dent and we were eventually rescued by a 25/1.
Dark, wet, windy. Musty Mk1 compartment. But it didn't matter, because the Rat's driver had it wide open - and the biblical racket must have been heard for miles! Bliss.

Absolute shiver down the spine stuff.

 

[Lost property]

Those hoppers, to little, at the time, eyes always conjured up images of the larger versions seen in America.

However, with the 9F's pulling them, you could always bet on an "extended wait " at Moss Lane / Navigation Rd and Altrincham level crossings if you were unfortunate enough to be there at the same time.

 

[Sun Chariot]

40: 2000, 47: 2580(?) and 60: 3100 I think. Tractive effort depends on gearing too.

Yes - the Sulzer LDA engine block was, at construction, rated at 2750bhp - but, after early-life engine reliability issues, was de-rated to 2580bhp.

D0260 "Lion" had the Sulzer LDA block and rated 2750bhp - but with BRCW's electrical equipment, rather than Brush's.

 

[randyrippley]

Yes - the Sulzer LDA engine block was, at construction, rated at 2750bhp - but, after early-life engine reliability issues, was de-rated to 2580bhp.

D0260 "Lion" had the Sulzer LDA block and rated 2750bhp - but with BRCW's electrical equipment, rather than Brush's.

Lion had AEI electrical equipment
BRCW just erected it

 

[Magdalia]

Yes - the Sulzer LDA engine block was, at construction, rated at 2750bhp - but, after early-life engine reliability issues, was de-rated to 2580bhp.

by reducing maximum rpm from 800 to 750.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Lion had AEI electrical equipment
BRCW just erected it

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me - it's a while since I read the excelllent info on DerbySulzers website.

I rather fancy turning my Heljan "Lion" into a "what if"; such as monastral blue D1400, or Civil Engineers "Dutch" 49101!

 

[randyrippley]

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me - it's a while since I read the excelllent info on DerbySulzers website.

I rather fancy turning my Heljan "Lion" into a "what if"; such as monastral blue D1400, or Civil Engineers "Dutch" 49101!

surely DP2 would have been class 49. Lion was more likely to be class 54?

 

[Taunton]

Is there any climbing at all for the loaded trains from Tunstead to Northwich? It seems downhill pretty much all the way, with some level parts. It makes a notable difference to the power required, compared for example to a Class 27, same power, climbing with full length trains over the West Highland.

More significant still was braking power. Were the hoppers unbraked, like the similar ones which took Summers iron ore from Bidston to Shotton?

 

[Gloster]

Is there any climbing at all for the loaded trains from Tunstead to Northwich? It seems downhill pretty much all the way, with some level parts. It makes a notable difference to the power required, compared for example to a Class 27, same power, climbing with full length trains over the West Highland.

More significant still was braking power. Were the hoppers unbraked, like the similar ones which took Summers iron ore from Bidston to Shotton?

A quick look in my books suggests that by the 1970s they were vacuum braked. However, I have a faint recollection that the original wagons weren’t.

EDIT: The SVR Wiki says that the ICI wagons were vacuum from their introduction in the 1930s.

 

[Magdalia]

I am surprised that, so far, everyone has resisted the temptation to mention the various trials of MetroVick CoBos on the Tunstead-Northwich trains in 1963 and 1964.

There is an extensive report on this in Anthony Sayer's CoBo book see pages 195-197.

More significant still was braking power. Were the hoppers unbraked, like the similar ones which took Summers iron ore from Bidston to Shotton?

A quick look in my books suggests that by the 1970s they were vacuum braked. However, I have a faint recollection that the original wagons weren’t.

With the loaded trains running down a steep hill for 15 miles between Peak Forest and Cheadle Heath, brake force was the constraint not horse power.

According to Sayer, the wagons were continuously braked, but with only one brake on each wagon. The issue was finding a diesel loco to replace the 8Fs that could brake the train without the loco wheels overheating and risking shifting the tyres.

 

[randyrippley]

With the loaded trains running down a steep hill for 15 miles between Peak Forest and Cheadle Heath, brake force was the constraint not horse power.

According to Sayer, the wagons were continuously braked, but with only one brake on each wagon. The issue was finding a diesel loco to replace the 8Fs that could brake the train without the loco wheels overheating and risking shifting the tyres.

surely that's what the brake tenders were for?

 

[furnessvale]

Is there any climbing at all for the loaded trains from Tunstead to Northwich? It seems downhill pretty much all the way, with some level parts. It makes a notable difference to the power required, compared for example to a Class 27, same power, climbing with full length trains over the West Highland.

More significant still was braking power. Were the hoppers unbraked, like the similar ones which took Summers iron ore from Bidston to Shotton?

It starts with a climb from Tunstead to the summit just north of Peak Forest. I think that has used bankers in the past and I am not sure what effect that has on the new 4000+ tonnes stone trains to London.

 

[6Gman]

It starts with a climb from Tunstead to the summit just north of Peak Forest. I think that has used bankers in the past and I am not sure what effect that has on the new 4000+ tonnes stone trains to London.

I have a feeling that initially they were piloted but that then switched to banking, which made the arrangement at Peak Forest rather easier!

 

[5562]

Piloting was used as far as Peak Forest Station, often a 4F, up until the mid/late 1950s when banking became normal practice. The excellent book by Paul Harrison and Peter Midwinter - An Illustrated History of the ICI Hopper Wagon, has a couple of photos showing piloting.
8Fs took 16 loaded hoppers whereas a 9F took 18, as did Class 25s. Banking continued until double headed Class 37s worked the trains.

 

[Strathclyder]

I am surprised that, so far, everyone has resisted the temptation to mention the various trials of MetroVick CoBos on the Tunstead-Northwich trains in 1963 and 1964.

There is an extensive report on this in Anthony Sayer's CoBo book see pages 195-197.

I was just coming here to mention this. Apparently they outperformed the two Class 40s that were used alongside them on a few of these trials, but in the end as we know, BR settled on using Derby Type 2s (the 25s as they were known then).

Class 28 | D5714-X-NorthendenJunction-0563-RPC

D5714 approaches Northenden Junction with a test train of empty ICI hoppers bound for Tunstead, 5/63

railphotoprints.uk