Ideas for new railway stations in South Hampshire

[PTR 444]

The southern part of Hampshire is a densely populated area of the country which mostly relies on the motorways (namely the M27) and local road network for residents to get around, often causing congestion at peak times. We should be looking at ways in which we can shift local traffic from road to rail, and to help with this I had some ideas for new stations in mind, generally situated in areas with minimal or no public transport.

Nursling
Situated on the double-track Wessex Main Line between Redbridge and Romsey, this would be a 2-platform station located just north of the Weston Road overbridge. It would primarily serve Nursling Industrial Estate which currently has no public transport, and would be served hourly in each direction by the SWR Romsey Rounder. GWR trains would pass through without stopping.

Flexford
Located on the Romsey - Eastleigh Line just north of the Flexford Road overbridge. While this is seemingly in the middle of nowhere, a station in this location would have Hiltingbury and the northern end of Valley Park within its catchment area, both areas with poor bus provision for their population size. Additionally, there is a new housing development being constructed just to the north of the railway at this location. As the line here is single-track, a simple one-platform unstaffed halt-style station would work well here.

Whiteley
Situated on the Eastleigh - Fareham Line about a mile east of Botley. While the centre of Whiteley is some distance from the railway (1.5 miles), the village is rapidly expanding north towards it, so at some stage it would make sense to have a station here. This would be identical to how Hedge End station opened when the new housing there was built in the early ‘90s.

Knowle
Located near the site of the old Knowle Halt, this would initially serve the recently developed housing on the site of the former hospital at Knowle. It would however gain much additional purpose if the nearby new town of Welborne gets the go-ahead. Not surprising as I believe a station here was actually proposed by Hampshire County Council at some point not too long ago

Segensworth
Probably less of a case to build this than the others as it’s catchment is largely already served by Swanwick, but it might be useful for the eastern parts of the industrial area which are over a mile away. This would be located east of the Whiteley Lane overbridge, and could serve the south-eastern parts of Whiteley and Titchfield as well. Service would be hourly in each direction with the SWR Soton-Pompey stopper calling.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

 

[The Planner]

Whats serving them?

 

[PTR 444]

Whats serving them?

Service provision wise?

Nursling and Flexford would be served by additional calls in the Salisbury - Romsey Rounder

Whiteley and Knowle would be served by additional calls in the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh service

Segensworth would be served by an additional call in the stopping Southampton - Portsmouth service

 

[The Planner]

Service provision wise?

Nursling and Flexford would be served by additional calls in the Salisbury - Romsey Rounder

Whiteley and Knowle would be served by additional calls in the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh service

Segensworth would be served by an additional call in the stopping Southampton - Portsmouth service

Thats where it isn't as easy to do as its not just the station now. Doesn't the Romsey have something like a 4 minute turnaround? 2 new stations means that circuit needs re-writing.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thats where it isn't as easy to do as its not just the station now. Doesn't the Romsey have something like a 4 minute turnaround? 2 new stations means that circuit needs re-writing.

Theoretically as it’s a DMU soon it will be a Salisbury / Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton - Totton - Marchwood, so it’s going to need a big re-write anyway…

 

[PTR 444]

Theoretically as it’s a DMU soon it will be a Salisbury / Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton - Totton - Marchwood, so it’s going to need a big re-write anyway…

Southampton - Fawley does not require a re-write of the Romsey Rounder as it can be run as a 1tph shuttle, as per the current plan. It has been proven that merging the eastern part of the Romsey Rounder with the new Fawley service is impractical under the current timetable due to pathing through Southampton Central. Improvements in train speeds might allow for the Rounder to call at my proposed Nursling and Flexford stations without having to recast the paths through Southampton however.

 

[swt_passenger]

Theoretically as it’s a DMU soon it will be a Salisbury / Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton - Totton - Marchwood, so it’s going to need a big re-write anyway…

No it won’t. You’ve obviously missed all the regular explanations why not in the Fawley reopening threads.

The southern part of Hampshire is a densely populated area of the country which mostly relies on the motorways (namely the M27) and local road network for residents to get around, often causing congestion at peak times. We should be looking at ways in which we can shift local traffic from road to rail, and to help with this I had some ideas for new stations in mind, generally situated in areas with minimal or no public transport.
[…]
Knowle
Located near the site of the old Knowle Halt, this would initially serve the recently developed housing on the site of the former hospital at Knowle. It would however gain much additional purpose if the nearby new town of Welborne gets the go-ahead. Not surprising as I believe a station here was actually proposed by Hampshire County Council at some point not too long ago
[…]
What are your thoughts on these ideas?

I think the last time Hants CC published anything on this the location of Welborne Station was going to be somewhat further south than the former Knowle Halt.

I’ll try and find a drawing showing its position, but so far I have found a statement that it will be where the railway passes alongside the Welborne development western boundary, which apparently has the advantage of it being a Fareham planning decision.

It would seem to be allocated a site about 700m south of Knowle‘s platform, on the down side of the single track.

 

[PTR 444]

No it won’t. You’ve obviously missed all the regular explanations why not in the Fawley reopening threads.


I think the last time Hants CC published anything on this the location of Welborne Station was going to be somewhat further south than the former Knowle Halt.

I’ll try and find a drawing showing its position, but so far I have found a statement that it will be where the railway passes alongside the Welborne development western boundary, which apparently has the advantage of it being a Fareham planning decision.

It would seem to be allocated a site about 700m south of Knowle‘s platform, on the down side of the single track.

Ahh that makes sense. A station in that location would be better than one directly on the site of Knowle Halt since it would be closer to the new town.

I’m surprised though that this plan did not involve double-tracking the line from Botley to a point just north of the Fareham tunnel. My proposal would include this to increase capacity on the line, and would also allow Welborne station to be built with two platforms from the start.

 

[Towers]

A station serving the Copnor area of portsmouth, somewhere between Hilsea & Fratton, has long been considered a sensible idea too.

 

[swt_passenger]

A station serving the Copnor area of portsmouth, somewhere between Hilsea & Fratton, has long been considered a sensible idea too.

There’s even a Station Road leading to the proposed site, very near Copnor Bridge. Must be getting on for about a 100 years wait by now? I suspect they might have thought it too close to Fratton, it’s only just over a mile away.

 

[jfollows]

A station serving the Copnor area of portsmouth, somewhere between Hilsea & Fratton, has long been considered a sensible idea too.

Makes sense to me; I worked in Baltic House at the bottom (then) of the M275 1984-89 (which is also the ferry port junction), and it was about equidistantly a long walk to any station on the island. There are a lot of shops and houses in the area, or there were anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Makes sense to me; I worked in Baltic House at the bottom (then) of the M275 1984-89 (which is also the ferry port junction), and it was about equidistantly a long walk to any station on the island. There are a lot of shops and houses in the area, or there were anyway.

I think looking at the map a prospective station due east of Rudmore roundabout, so north of Copnor bridge is hardly any closer to Rudmore than Portsmouth and Southsea. Might be an easier walk though, as it would be mostly down residential streets.

I just realised we’ve had a discussion about a possible Copnor station before, although it took a few posts to pinpoint the location. It was way back in 2011:

Any thoughts on how to build a new station?

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping for some help, advice, a straight jacket or anything else you may think is appropriate. I live in Portsmouth, which is a very crowded and congested city. Just down the road is a patch of land, big enough to build a small station, plus some parking if...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Shrop]

Having worked in Fareham for a number of years not that long ago, and as a regular rail commuter to get there, I often had thoughts about rail development.

The area is in serious need of improved transport links, but the rail network doesn't lend itself well. Southampton to Portsmouth is an incredibly tedious journey which is very uncompetetive with the M27, even though the M27 has its own problems of delays. Eastleigh to Portsmouth isn't taken seriously by the rail authorities, as trains coming in from Birmingham usually arrive into Basingstoke just as the Portsmouth service departs, thus negating a significant part of the market for this route from the north, which leaves it as little more than purely a local route. In fact Reading to Portsmouth always was notable by it's complete absence of any through services whatsoever, which is remarkable for two urban areas of such sizes, lying only 50 miles apart.

So the only real likely benefit would be frequently stopping trains as described in the OP, but that's a huge investment for something not much better than a bus service. Not forgetting too, that there was a serious plan to provide a light rail system from Fareham to Portsmouth via Gosport 20 years ago, which would run under the water into Portsmouth, but Government cut the funding for this when they decided they would rather use the money to fund the 2012 Olympics.

Even at Fareham where the intended light rail link to Portsmouth was replaced by a bus link to Gosport running along the same route, there is no link between buses and trains. There's a subway which was re-developed at great expense, but a bridge over the road at rail height would have made much more sense, with a ramp down to the southbound bus stop, rather than having passengers zig zagging around both horizontally and vertically to reach the bus stop. The opportunity was there, but sadly the interest wasn't, because neither the local authorities nor Government really take public transport and mode integration seriously, except in pretence.

Apologies for my cynicism, I hope something can be developed.

 

[Towers]

Eastleigh to Portsmouth isn't taken seriously by the rail authorities, as trains coming in from Birmingham usually arrive into Basingstoke just as the Portsmouth service departs, thus negating a significant part of the market for this route from the north, which leaves it as little more than purely a local route. In fact Reading to Portsmouth always was notable by it's complete absence of any through services whatsoever, which is remarkable for two urban areas of such sizes, lying only 50 miles apart.

A very good point regarding interchanges at Basingstoke.

The hourly Waterloo bound-stoppers from Portsmouth also suffer poor connections onwards to Reading, with the local GWR stoppers often departing very shortly after the Waterloo arrives, a few minutes short of making it a viable connection. This is despite the GWR unit usually having sat in the bay for 20 minutes or so! As an example, in the current timetable there is an 09:16 arrival from Portsmouth, and a Reading local departing at 09:19, which has arrived at Basing on its previous inbound journey at 08:51. There is also no xx:50-ish northbound Crosscountry that hour either, so it's a wait for the 09:53 stopper for the next Reading connection. Such a missed opportunity!

There's also the scheduling of the off peak Weymouth - Waterloo fasts all calling at Winchester yet omitting to serve Basingstoke, which removes another potential connection option. This seems bonkers given Basingstoke's obvious status as a major interchange point, particularly in light of Crosscountry's continued limited service on the route. Any timetable recast really ought to be looking at serving Basingstoke as a matter of routine, IMHO.

 

[A0]

The southern part of Hampshire is a densely populated area of the country which mostly relies on the motorways (namely the M27) and local road network for residents to get around, often causing congestion at peak times. We should be looking at ways in which we can shift local traffic from road to rail, and to help with this I had some ideas for new stations in mind, generally situated in areas with minimal or no public transport.

Nursling
Situated on the double-track Wessex Main Line between Redbridge and Romsey, this would be a 2-platform station located just north of the Weston Road overbridge. It would primarily serve Nursling Industrial Estate which currently has no public transport, and would be served hourly in each direction by the SWR Romsey Rounder. GWR trains would pass through without stopping.

At the risk of stating the obvious - if there's *no* current public transport, why would a railway station be successful ? The issue with many of the warehouse type estates is the jobs are relatively low paid, people don't tend to travel far to get to them and the shift patterns are awkward. If it isn't viable to run a bus there, I can't see a rail service being succesful.

Flexford
Located on the Romsey - Eastleigh Line just north of the Flexford Road overbridge. While this is seemingly in the middle of nowhere, a station in this location would have Hiltingbury and the northern end of Valley Park within its catchment area, both areas with poor bus provision for their population size. Additionally, there is a new housing development being constructed just to the north of the railway at this location. As the line here is single-track, a simple one-platform unstaffed halt-style station would work well here.

Chandlers Ford station is less than 2 miles away - that's far too close to be viable.

Whiteley
Situated on the Eastleigh - Fareham Line about a mile east of Botley. While the centre of Whiteley is some distance from the railway (1.5 miles), the village is rapidly expanding north towards it, so at some stage it would make sense to have a station here. This would be identical to how Hedge End station opened when the new housing there was built in the early ‘90s.

That would be a station in the middle of nowhere. And Swanwick station is only 2 miles from the centre of Whiteley.

Knowle
Located near the site of the old Knowle Halt, this would initially serve the recently developed housing on the site of the former hospital at Knowle. It would however gain much additional purpose if the nearby new town of Welborne gets the go-ahead. Not surprising as I believe a station here was actually proposed by Hampshire County Council at some point not too long ago

Knowle village has a population of ~1,500 - Maybe when it has a population of 15,000 it might be worth looking at, until then, not.

Segensworth
Probably less of a case to build this than the others as it’s catchment is largely already served by Swanwick, but it might be useful for the eastern parts of the industrial area which are over a mile away. This would be located east of the Whiteley Lane overbridge, and could serve the south-eastern parts of Whiteley and Titchfield as well. Service would be hourly in each direction with the SWR Soton-Pompey stopper calling.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

If you think this has less of a case than the others, then it really is a no-hoper.

 

[PTR 444]

A very good point regarding interchanges at Basingstoke.

The hourly Waterloo bound-stoppers from Portsmouth also suffer poor connections onwards to Reading, with the local GWR stoppers often departing very shortly after the Waterloo arrives, a few minutes short of making it a viable connection. This is despite the GWR unit usually having sat in the bay for 20 minutes or so! As an example, in the current timetable there is an 09:16 arrival from Portsmouth, and a Reading local departing at 09:19, which has arrived at Basing on its previous inbound journey at 08:51. There is also no xx:50-ish northbound Crosscountry that hour either, so it's a wait for the 09:53 stopper for the next Reading connection. Such a missed opportunity!

There's also the scheduling of the off peak Weymouth - Waterloo fasts all calling at Winchester yet omitting to serve Basingstoke, which removes another potential connection option. This seems bonkers given Basingstoke's obvious status as a major interchange point, particularly in light of Crosscountry's continued limited service on the route. Any timetable recast really ought to be looking at serving Basingstoke as a matter of routine, IMHO.

There is a good reason why the xx35 ex-Waterloo skips Basingstoke, and that is to ensure a journey time of under 1h30m to Southampton, and 2h to Bournemouth. Adding a call at BSK would inconvenience a lot of Dorset passengers who use what is currently their fastest train to the capital.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a good reason why the xx35 ex-Waterloo skips Basingstoke, and that is to ensure a journey time of under 1h30m to Southampton, and 2h to Bournemouth. Adding a call at BSK would inconvenience a lot of Dorset passengers who use what is currently their fastest train to the capital.

Give it a few weeks and there’ll be a serious proposal for the faster service to skip Parkway, Winchester and Woking as well, that used to come up regularly from a supposed SWT driver who was apparently stuck in a 1960s mindset…

 

[Shrop]

There is a good reason why the xx35 ex-Waterloo skips Basingstoke, and that is to ensure a journey time of under 1h30m to Southampton, and 2h to Bournemouth. Adding a call at BSK would inconvenience a lot of Dorset passengers who use what is currently their fastest train to the capital

Are you sure about this proposal to skip stations? Modern thinking seems to prefer that all trains are all things to all people, on the grounds that modern acceleration means that station stops cost almost nothing, and faster trains aren't worth much as they simply catch up other trains too quickly.

Personally I don't subscribe to this thinking, I believe there is much value in faster trains, but others on this forum and in the rail industry generally tend to outnumber my thinking. Which is why London to Newport and Cardiff is slower now after electrification than it was back in the 1970s, because today every train has to stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway

 

[Towers]

There is a good reason why the xx35 ex-Waterloo skips Basingstoke, and that is to ensure a journey time of under 1h30m to Southampton, and 2h to Bournemouth. Adding a call at BSK would inconvenience a lot of Dorset passengers who use what is currently their fastest train to the capital.

I'm not really convinced that an extra two or three minutes on a journey could be reasonably described as an "inconvenience", simply because it nudges the journey time very slightly past some arbitary round figure.

Personally I don't subscribe to this thinking, I believe there is much value in faster trains, but others on this forum and in the rail industry generally tend to outnumber my thinking. Which is why London to Newport and Cardiff is slower now after electrification than it was back in the 1970s, because today every train has to stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway

That'll be because nowadays Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway are major stations, rather than the insignificant places that they might have been 50 years ago!

 

[London Trains]

Give it a few weeks and there’ll be a serious proposal for the faster service to skip Parkway, Winchester and Woking as well, that used to come up regularly from a supposed SWT driver who was apparently stuck in a 1960s mindset…

Most likely impossible due to pathing anyway, but I would switch the Woking stop to Clapham Junction for the connectivity it provides.

 

[Shrop]

That'll be because nowadays Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway are major stations, rather than the insignificant places that they might have been 50 years ago!

Of course they are, but why escalate them to such an extent that everyone who travels to South Wales is forced to stop at all of them on every service? Where is the priority for South Wales?

 

[Towers]

Of course they are, but why escalate them to such an extent that everyone who travels to South Wales is forced to stop at all of them on every service? Where is the priority for South Wales?

I'm slightly confused as to where else you're thinking of that sort of distance away that receives a regular non-stop train service to and from the capital all throughout the day? Most trains tend to stop en route!

 

[Shrop]

I'm slightly confused as to where else you're thinking of that sort of distance away that receives a regular non-stop train service to and from the capital all throughout the day? Most trains tend to stop en route!

London to Warrington? London to York? Both 50 miles FURTHER from London than Newport is ...

 

[Towers]

London to Warrington? London to York? Both 50 miles FURTHER from London than Newport is ...

Those destinations are also served by services continuing much further up country, though? That doesn't really work with S Wales.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is about Ideas for new railway stations in South Hampshire. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread.

 

[stuu]

So the only real likely benefit would be frequently stopping trains as described in the OP, but that's a huge investment for something not much better than a bus service. Not forgetting too, that there was a serious plan to provide a light rail system from Fareham to Portsmouth via Gosport 20 years ago, which would run under the water into Portsmouth, but Government cut the funding for this when they decided they would rather use the money to fund the 2012 Olympics.

That's not remotely true. It was cancelled in 2004 before London even won the Olympics. It was cancelled because the government decided to build the new aircraft carriers which needed a deeper channel to access Portsmorth Dockyard. Therefore the tunnel had to be deeper and more expensive, and the government wouldn't pay

 

[swt_passenger]

That's not remotely true. It was cancelled in 2004 before London even won the Olympics. It was cancelled because the government decided to build the new aircraft carriers which needed a deeper channel to access Portsmorth Dockyard. Therefore the tunnel had to be deeper and more expensive, and the government wouldn't pay

I always thought even without the intended future dredging there was still a fairly obvious problem, because the logical passenger flows would have suited an interchange station just either side of the water, alongside the existing bus stations and Portsmouth Harbour station. But the line would still be at fairly low level and rising in tunnel at those points. So you’d either need underground stations, or if wanting suitable gradients to a surface station you’d need to move both stations further away either side. I just don’t think that was ever thought through properly.

 

[Shrop]

That's not remotely true. It was cancelled in 2004 before London even won the Olympics. It was cancelled because the government decided to build the new aircraft carriers which needed a deeper channel to access Portsmorth Dockyard. Therefore the tunnel had to be deeper and more expensive, and the government wouldn't pay

Apologies for any straying a little from topic if I reply to this. My reason for saying this LRT project was a casualty of the Olympics, was because I moved to Fareham from working on Merseytram, where the talk was all about Merseytram being cancelled due to the Olympics. When I went to Fareham, my boss was interested in the Merseytram casualty, because his belief was that the same thing happened to the Fareham LRT. That conversation was during my interview back in 2008, but since he passed away only a couple of years later I can no longer question him about it. However, I do believe there was some truth in his comments. Knowing the way local authorities work, as well as Govt politicians, we'll probably never know the full story. It's not as if this would have been the first or last time that scapegoat reasoning has been found, and he was in a position to know a lot more than most of us ever would.