Ideas for service patterns on TransPennine Route Post-IRP

[Jorge Da Silva]

Post the IRP it has been said that the capacity will increase from 5tph to 8tph. What could this look like post IRP assuming all links have been built.

Pre-COVID:

1tph Liverpool to Scarborough
1tph Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle
1tph Manchester Airport to Redcar Central
1tph Manchester Airport to Newcastle
1tph Manchester Piccadilly to Hull

https://assets.publishing.service.g...an-for-the-north-and-midlands-web-version.pdf

Completing the new high speed line between Manchester Piccadilly and the Transpennine route to Huddersfield, which could support an increase from five (pre-COVID-19) to eight fast trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds

 

[SuperNova]

Problem is, despite TRU being designed for 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stopping, there's still significant capacity constraints for service upgrades. The IRP isn't remotely integrated.

 

[tomuk]

Post the IRP it has been said that the capacity will increase from 5tph to 8tph. What could this look like post IRP assuming all links have been built.

Pre-COVID:

1tph Liverpool to Scarborough
1tph Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle
1tph Manchester Airport to Redcar Central
1tph Manchester Airport to Newcastle
1tph Manchester Piccadilly to Hull

https://assets.publishing.service.g...an-for-the-north-and-midlands-web-version.pdf

Well three of those five aren't currently electrified. Hull is easiest to do, Redcar probably politically best - Conservative Tees Valley Mayor, Scarborough need to sort York Station does it need TPE?

2tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Newcastle
1tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Redcar Central
1tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York -Hull

2tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Newcastle
1tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Redcar Central
1tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York -Hull

Plus a sprinkling of Crewe and Huddersfield stops.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well three of those five aren't currently electrified. Hull is easiest to do, Redcar probably politically best - Conservative Tees Valley Mayor, Scarborough need to sort York Station does it need TPE?

2tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Newcastle
1tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Redcar Central
1tph Liverpool - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York -Hull

2tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Newcastle
1tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York - Redcar Central
1tph Birmingham - Man Airport - Man Pic - Leeds - York -Hull

Plus a sprinkling of Crewe and Huddersfield stops.

I would still have services run to Scarborough

 

[Glenn1969]

It's not at all clear whether the 8tph includes existing services. How is it proposed to serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury?

 

[YorksLad12]

It's not at all clear whether the 8tph includes existing services. How is it proposed to serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury?

With the way this government re-announces things I would assume 8tph, of which 8tph have already been announced (4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stoppers).

 

[Manutd1999]

Maximum capacity between Dewsbury and Leeds will probably be around 8ph (i.e. 4x fasts, 4x stoppers or semi-fast).

4 fasts via the new Warrington-Marsden section:
Liverpool - Warrington - Airport - Piccadilly - Hudds - Leeds

continuing east of Leeds as:
2ph - York - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle
1ph - York - Thirsk - Northallerton - Middlesborough
1ph - Selby - Brough - Hull

2x semi-fast bi-modes via the existing track and Victoria
Leeds - Batley - Dewsbury - Mirfield - Hudds - Stalybridge - Victoria - Warrington - Runcorn - Chester

2x stoppers Leeds - Huddersfield
Leeds - all stops - Dewsbury - all stops - Hudds

2x stoppers Huddersfield - Victoria
Huddersfield - all stops - Stalybridge - Victoria


One issue with all of this is how Brighouse (+ Elland) is served post TRU. The current solution of sending DMUs from the Calder Valley to Leeds via Dewsbury won't make much sense once the line is electrified. Perhaps additional services could run from Huddersfield via Haliafax and Bradford, but that would increase journey times to Leeds from Brighouse.....

 

[tomuk]

Maximum capacity between Dewsbury and Leeds will probably be around 8ph (i.e. 4x fasts, 4x stoppers or semi-fast).

4 fasts via the new Warrington-Marsden section:
Liverpool - Warrington - Airport - Piccadilly - Hudds - Leeds

continuing east of Leeds as:
2ph - York - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle
1ph - York - Thirsk - Northallerton - Middlesborough
1ph - Selby - Brough - Hull

2x semi-fast bi-modes via the existing track and Victoria
Leeds - Batley - Dewsbury - Mirfield - Hudds - Stalybridge - Victoria - Warrington - Runcorn - Chester

2x stoppers Leeds - Huddersfield
Leeds - all stops - Dewsbury - all stops - Hudds

2x stoppers Huddersfield - Victoria
Huddersfield - all stops - Stalybridge - Victoria


One issue with all of this is how Brighouse (+ Elland) is served post TRU. The current solution of sending DMUs from the Calder Valley to Leeds via Dewsbury won't make much sense once the line is electrified. Perhaps additional services could run from Huddersfield via Haliafax and Bradford, but that would increase journey times to Leeds from Brighouse.....

There has got to be room in there for HS2/NPR services to Birmingham. As per the report

This line [HS2 Crewe to Manchester] and Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) will allow direct high speed services from Birmingham to Leeds, taking 79–89 minutes

 

[Manutd1999]

There has got to be room in there for HS2/NPR services to Birmingham. As per the report

In that case I guess the 4x fasts would be
2x Liverpool - Piccadilly - Leeds
2x Birmingham - Piccadilly - Leeds

 

[Purple Orange]

The NPR line will be purely EMUs and the XC route between Birmingham-Leeds/Newcastle has shifted to via Manchester, rather than via Sheffield. So, I anticipate the following:

• 1 x Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds
• 1 x Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - York
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Hull (semi-fast)

 

[Manutd1999]

The NPR line will be purely EMUs and the XC route between Birmingham-Leeds/Newcastle has shifted to via Manchester, rather than via Sheffield. So, I anticipate the following:

• 1 x Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds
• 1 x Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - York
• 2 x Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Hull (semi-fast)

But surely more than 2x semi-fast services will be needed to adequately serve the small stations Batley, Morley, Cottingley etc?

 

[tomuk]

But surely more than 2x semi-fast services will be needed to adequately serve the small stations Batley, Morley, Cottingley etc?

West Yorkshire Metro

 

[SuperNova]

It's not at all clear whether the 8tph includes existing services. How is it proposed to serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury?

2 x semi-fast and 2x stoppers. Stalybridge supplemented with services into Victoria by Northern and Dewsbury by the Calder Valley stopper should a path remain.

But surely more than 2x semi-fast services will be needed to adequately serve the small stations Batley, Morley, Cottingley etc?

They'll only be served by the stoppers.

 

[Glenn1969]

2 x semi-fast and 2x stoppers. Stalybridge supplemented with services into Victoria by Northern and Dewsbury by the Calder Valley stopper should a path remain.

They'll only be served by the stoppers.

If they don't find a path that's bad news for Brighouse which would drop to 1tph and lose its Manchester service (although I would prefer one of the semi fasts to be diverted to Bradford after Huddersfield to give us long awaited access to Castlefield)

 

[Sm5]

As its all fantasy, why not do a Dougal and run EC and WC services in a magic roundabout…

Edinburgh-York-Leeds- Manchester-Preston-Carlilse-Edinburgh (and vv).
Then a Scarborough -Liverpool, and Yorkshire -Manchester Airport.

Loop services could use ROGs new 93’s on the mk5’s and send the 68’s back to DRS.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It's not at all clear whether the 8tph includes existing services. How is it proposed to serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury?

does it not bypass those stations on the new route.

 

[Glenn1969]

does it not bypass those stations on the new route.

That's what I was thinking....

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That's what I was thinking....

It bypasses Stalybridge as it joins near Marsden

 

[Purple Orange]

It bypasses Stalybridge as it joins near Marsden

That suggests to me that Stalybridge will see the stoppers & semi-fast services which then run to Victoria.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That suggests to me that Stalybridge will see the stoppers & semi-fast services which then run to Victoria.

the route as specified in IRP runs from Warrington through hs2 to Piccadilly comes out of Piccadilly on a new route again all the way to Marsden.

 

[Purple Orange]

the route as specified in IRP runs from Warrington through hs2 to Piccadilly comes out of Piccadilly on a new route again all the way to Marsden.

Which bypasses Stalybride, but are we really saying Stalybridge won’t see any service to Leeds from Manchester?

 

[tomuk]

Which bypasses Stalybride, but are we really saying Stalybridge won’t see any service to Leeds from Manchester?

Yes no NPR trains. A Leeds- Manchester stopper/semi-fast more than likely. It may well be a lot quicker to change at Huddersfield or even Vic for a Calder Valley service.

 

[SuperNova]

If they don't find a path that's bad news for Brighouse which would drop to 1tph and lose its Manchester service (although I would prefer one of the semi fasts to be diverted to Bradford after Huddersfield to give us long awaited access to Castlefield)

Problem is three-fold.

Firstly, running diesel on an electrified railway - unless Northern get good bi-mode trains it is a massive performance risk if the Calder Valley service remains on the core.
Secondly, ETCS. The rolling stock will need this fitted as TRU will be ETCS from Cottingley to Stalybridge. Could 185s be a solution if bi-modes aren't available as I've heard Siemens looking at ETCS on 185s.
Thirdly, not sure what the 2 stoppers per hour refers to! Assume it's the status quo, but Batley would definitely benefit from a further direct service to Huddersfield but capacity remains constrained especially given that eventually NPR services will use the core. However, rebuild of Ravensthorpe allows them to get direct trains to both Leeds/Wakefield which is good given the impending housing developments.

 

[driverd]

Problem is three-fold.

Firstly, running diesel on an electrified railway - unless Northern get good bi-mode trains it is a massive performance risk if the Calder Valley service remains on the core.
Secondly, ETCS. The rolling stock will need this fitted as TRU will be ETCS from Cottingley to Stalybridge. Could 185s be a solution if bi-modes aren't available as I've heard Siemens looking at ETCS on 185s.
Thirdly, not sure what the 2 stoppers per hour refers to! Assume it's the status quo, but Batley would definitely benefit from a further direct service to Huddersfield but capacity remains constrained especially given that eventually NPR services will use the core. However, rebuild of Ravensthorpe allows them to get direct trains to both Leeds/Wakefield which is good given the impending housing developments.

To summarise:
1. 195s are pretty decent performance wise. They won't lose significant amounts of time vs a modern EMU and would out accelerate an older one. Also why is diesel under wires a performance risk? There are many performance risks by bringing an off-route train into the mix for a short corridor, there are many performance risks inherent with electric traction, being diesel is not a risk.
2. 195s have ETCS.
3. Not much to say on the third!

If Calder Valley trains are the problem, 195s are the solution, and the solution is already here.

 

[Roast Veg]

However, rebuild of Ravensthorpe allows them to get direct trains to both Leeds/Wakefield which is good given the impending housing developments.

That supposes that a service to Kirkgate will be put on. Today such a service is somewhat minimal, and not because there isn't the capacity.

 

[IanXC]

An option I have been pondering is for the Manchester - Brighouse - Leeds service to be diverted via Wakefield Kirkgate. That would remove it from the 'Dewsbury corridor', provide a Wakefield to Manchester service, but of course add to the congestion of the F line into Leeds station - although Network Rail studies have of course identified adding lines G/H as options.

 

[SuperNova]

That supposes that a service to Kirkgate will be put on. Today such a service is somewhat minimal, and not because there isn't the capacity.

TPE were supposed to begin in May 2020 extending the Manchester stopper through. And with the redevelopment of Huddersfield, they'll have to due to lack of capacity in terminating platforms until complete - it's pretty much guaranteed. And given Northern can't be bothered to run a service too.

 

[Roast Veg]

An option I have been pondering is for the Manchester - Brighouse - Leeds service to be diverted via Wakefield Kirkgate.

You'd need to keep a close eye on how many services are calling at Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, and White Rose. A significant reduction would open up the timetable for fast services, but kill station usage. Batley and Morley aren't even on the WYCA mass transit plans.

TPE were supposed to begin in May 2020 extending the Manchester stopper through. And with the redevelopment of Huddersfield, they'll have to due to lack of capacity in terminating platforms until complete - it's pretty much guaranteed. And given Northern can't be bothered to run a service too.

But will such a TPE service remain? All signs thus far suggest that it's an operational inconvenience.

 

[SuperNova]

You'd need to keep a close eye on how many services are calling at Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, and White Rose. A significant reduction would open up the timetable for fast services, but kill station usage. Batley and Morley aren't even on the WYCA mass transit plans.

But will such a TPE service remain? All signs thus far suggest that it's an operational inconvenience.

What signs? Paused due to Covid?

 

[IanXC]

You'd need to keep a close eye on how many services are calling at Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, and White Rose. A significant reduction would open up the timetable for fast services, but kill station usage. Batley and Morley aren't even on the WYCA mass transit plans.

Dewsbury is a different case but I don't think running 2x stoppers between Huddersfield and Leeds (formed of EMU stock) could really be seen as inadequate.