Impact on Universities

[6862]

I have a number of PhD students spread across a few unis up and down the country, good luck and don't lost heart - many unis are trying to get at least some research back and some have started to trickle back but it seems vary variable. We are also offering to extend our students contracts if appropriate to give them more time.

Thanks for the encouraging words, but unfortunately my university has made it clear that I fall into a category of students that will not be included in the reopening plans because prior to lockdown I decided I would take departmental closure as a chance to take a break and visit family, got stuck here, lost my home in my university city (because the flat is owned by the university), and the university have said that people not currently resident in the city will not be included in the reopening. So despite my department partially reopening I will not be permitted to resume work. Hence I expect to spend the next 2 years approx. doing very little and getting increasingly fed up with life.

 

[BJames]

I work in an public sector science role that is 'adjacent' to the university sector, but not part of it. Naturally I collaborate with University based researchers a great deal and many of them visit us to use our facilities and conduct their experiments. Needless to say, the situation the universities face is of great interest to us. It seems almost certain a number of universities will go down the pan, but what a few of us fear is early career researchers - junior lecturers and research fellows who will probably get the boot. Some of my collaborators have had the 'suggestion' that they aim to bring in say £1m or so** in research grants / industrial money, or else!! The more senior, professorial staff in our field will easily be able to attract this level of funding, junior academics, less so. I feel for the undergraduates as well, as, for me, going to university was my ticket out of my grim hometown and I would be gutted for others to be denied this opportunity, forced to watch some poorly delivered Zoom lecture - and to be fair my university based friends aren't keen on this either. It should also not escape the government's attention that healthy universities have helped in the regeneration and reinvention of some of our regional cities, so if they value their 'levelling up' agenda they better watch themselves.

At some stage our government is going to have to make some choices about where we go as a country. Clearly 2m of social distancing is impractical and as others have pointed out expecting young people to follow these ludicrous 'social bubble' ideas is a non-starter and is an example of badly made rules and behavioural micromanagement that, frankly, a lot of the population is starting to ignore. What are the government thinking? I suspect they are very in hock to a group of, frankly, weird mathematical modellers (go and read some of their papers) who have some eccentric and unworkable ideas - and we seem much further down this rabbit hole than most of Europe.

At my employer, we are going through considerable 'mental gymnastics' to try and figure out how we 'science' with 2m spacing, lots of shared equipment and a concerned management. I want to bang my head into a wall, repeatedly.

**This is to make up for the loss of the lucrative Chinese student market and the number of home /EU students deferring...

These are good points - even before considering deferrals, the loss of non-EU international student fees are going to cause some quite significant funding difficulties even at the best universities. Good point about the levelling up agenda - without wishing to generalise too much, a fair few Northern and Midland cities are really supported by the major univeristies - I fear that the smaller institutions will be forced to merge or risk fading away.

Some more sensible decisions also need to be taken soon. Although I'm not at University in Scotland, I believe there's a few on this forum who are. Sturgeon is coming under increasing pressure to relax her approach to the vastly restrictive measures in Scotland, following two days of no covid deaths (ok, it's the weekend, but it's clearly reduced significantly). Who knows, maybe this could spell some significant improvements for Scotland's Universities come September? It would be ludicrous with this miniscule level of risk in Scotland to keep those institutions closed.

Oh, and I've started making headway through some of these papers. "Following the science" doesn't seem to have worked quite so well for this country - I wonder why we keep insisting on listening to them?

 

[PTR 444]

My university have implemented a no detriment policy and within the past week, emailed students to inform them that there will be a mixture of online lectures and small group tutorials from September (although teaching will not be starting for me until October as I am a returning student).

With only one year left on my course though, I do worry about what will happen after I graduate as the economic impact of the virus will mean the graduate job market is likely to be contracted for some time. I have been thinking about going on to do a masters in September 2021 which would be better than the risk of having no occupation, but things are uncertain and nobody knows whether face to face teaching, costs and viability of universities themselves will still be impacted by then.

 

[Huntergreed]

Some more sensible decisions also need to be taken soon. Although I'm not at University in Scotland, I believe there's a few on this forum who are. Sturgeon is coming under increasing pressure to relax her approach to the vastly restrictive measures in Scotland, following two days of no covid deaths (ok, it's the weekend, but it's clearly reduced significantly). Who knows, maybe this could spell some significant improvements for Scotland's Universities come September? It would be ludicrous with this miniscule level of risk in Scotland to keep those institutions closed.

I would hope she takes a more rational and well balanced approach than she is now soon, however some of the things she’s said on the briefings do worry me a little. She has constantly insisted “I will not bow to pressure to ease restrictions more quickly, this is a deadly virus and we need to fully accept the risks we face” and “The focus of the Scottish government has always been and will remain to be that we must suppress the virus as far as we possibly can”, it’s clear she either completely overestimates the risk this virus poses to the population, or she’s playing politics with BJ and wants a second peak down there to prove her right. I know which one my money is on.

Oh, and I've started making headway through some of these papers. "Following the science" doesn't seem to have worked quite so well for this country - I wonder why we keep insisting on listening to them?

Again, it’s either because the government themselves are listening to much to Professor Whitty and have terrified themselves by hearing the worst case scenarios, so now feel the need to impose Orwellian restrictions upon our lives and destroy the economy and our mental health out of fear of what “might happen”. The other possibility is that the government are completely aware of the minimal risk, but are afraid of getting the blame for “going over the top” and restricting our freedoms much more and for longer than was nexfessaey, and now they’re going toease up unnecessarily slowly and announce decreasing deaths every day so it seems they’re “doing well” and to try and keep the public trust.

I genuinely feel really bad for all those who are moving up into first year. They’re going to miss out on what is, from a social perspective, arguably the most important year of their life and, as well as receiving much poorer quality online education and graduating into a half-dead economy, the effect on student mental wellbeing and motivation (and as a result, overall attainment) is going to be very significant indeed. Purely because either because the government are scared stiff of the “big bad virus” and aren’t thinking rationally, or they’re playing politics to “look good”, and either way, it’s completely unacceptable in my view.

 

[Huntergreed]

Got some disappointing further correspondence from my university this afternoon. The majority (if not all) small tutorial classes are going to be moving to online delivery, the majority of 1-1 lessons will be moving online, and all lab and research facilities will be closed for the main, with permission in writing required for access and only issues in exceptional circumstances.

It sounds like almost everything will be held online, with the occasional tutorial or lesson held before an assessment on campus. A ridiculous and disappointing move in my opinion and I think quite a number of their first years and returning students may simply choose to defer or not go.

 

[Domh245]

Got some disappointing further correspondence from my university this afternoon. The majority (if not all) small tutorial classes are going to be moving to online delivery, the majority of 1-1 lessons will be moving online, and all lab and research facilities will be closed for the main, with permission in writing required for access and only issues in exceptional circumstances.

It sounds like almost everything will be held online, with the occasional tutorial or lesson held before an assessment on campus. A ridiculous and disappointing move in my opinion and I think quite a number of their first years and returning students may simply choose to defer or not go.

In contrast, I got an email this afternoon that promised extra details on a return to campus in September (not that I'm going back in September!) but then didn't have any! It was clear however that they want to bring everyone back to campus in September but are subject to Govt guidance, as well as their experience with their Chinese campus

 

[Mag_seven]

Got some disappointing further correspondence from my university this afternoon. The majority (if not all) small tutorial classes are going to be moving to online delivery, the majority of 1-1 lessons will be moving online, and all lab and research facilities will be closed for the main, with permission in writing required for access and only issues in exceptional circumstances.

It sounds like almost everything will be held online, with the occasional tutorial or lesson held before an assessment on campus. A ridiculous and disappointing move in my opinion and I think quite a number of their first years and returning students may simply choose to defer or not go.

There needs to be some sort of scrutiny of this paranoid risk avoidance. Who is holding the people that make these decisions to account? Decisions like this are ruining the informative years of young people who have a minute chance of dying from this virus.

 

[Huntergreed]

There needs to be some sort of scrutiny of this paranoid risk avoidance. Who is holding the people that make these decisions to account? Decisions like this are ruining the informative years of young people who have a minute chance of dying from this virus.

We've now been informed that on my course (a music education course) we need to buy software and microphones adding up to around £4-500. Does anyone know if this is legal (universities requiring students to purchase advanced software and hardware to pass assessments) or could we challenge this?

I think it's so disappointing and indeed many students feel completely outraged and cheated, saying that the minimal risk in no way justifies these completely detrimental measures to our education. We genuinely feel like the lockdown has been tough for the young generation so far, and we feel like if this goes ahead our mental health will fall so significantly that we may struggle to stay motivated for coursework at all anymore.

 

[6Gman]

My university have implemented a no detriment policy and within the past week, emailed students to inform them that there will be a mixture of online lectures and small group tutorials from September (although teaching will not be starting for me until October as I am a returning student).

With only one year left on my course though, I do worry about what will happen after I graduate as the economic impact of the virus will mean the graduate job market is likely to be contracted for some time. I have been thinking about going on to do a masters in September 2021 which would be better than the risk of having no occupation, but things are uncertain and nobody knows whether face to face teaching, costs and viability of universities themselves will still be impacted by then.

I'm always slightly puzzled by this idea of a "graduate job market".

There are jobs which require a degree, but there are - I assume - few if any jobs barred to graduates.

Perhaps some graduates will simply take up different jobs from what they had anticipated?

 

[Ianno87]

I'm always slightly puzzled by this idea of a "graduate job market".

There are jobs which require a degree, but there are - I assume - few if any jobs barred to graduates.

Perhaps some graduates will simply take up different jobs from what they had anticipated?

Plenty of graduates I know did a series of **** jobs ater graduation. It's the nature of the jobs market - a degree is no guarantee of a graduate-level job straight away.

 

[Huntergreed]

Plenty of graduates I know did a series of **** jobs ater graduation. It's the nature of the jobs market - a degree is no guarantee of a graduate-level job straight away.

This is going to be even more true now, with the economy now in a very poor state indeed.

 

[6862]

...all lab and research facilities will be closed for the main, with permission in writing required for access and only issues in exceptional circumstances.

This is worrying. The message from my university seems to be that only research which cannot be done remotely will be conducted in the department, so that means all research in our department, as none of it can be done remotely. However they are also saying that capacity for doing that research will be very limited, so I suspect we will see a huge shift towards research students like myself doing no real research and instead spending the remainder of our PhDs writing review articles. Not what I signed up for and not what I want to spend the rest of my time doing. Unless something is done soon this will absolutely demolish the STEM sector (even industry will suffer as new ideas and research won't be coming out of academic settings any more).

 

[Skutter]

Got some disappointing further correspondence from my university this afternoon. The majority (if not all) small tutorial classes are going to be moving to online delivery, the majority of 1-1 lessons will be moving online, and all lab and research facilities will be closed for the main, with permission in writing required for access and only issues in exceptional circumstances.

That sounds really bad, which University is this? University of York near me has just announced it's plans to reopen the library starting July.

I'd start complaining to the Student or Graduate Union and asking the Uni how you transfer your credits elsewhere (aka the mobile phone contract method of getting a better deal)

 

[PTR 444]

This is going to be even more true now, with the economy now in a very poor state indeed.

And this is one of the reasons why I am now leaning towards doing a masters as soon as I graduate.

 

[BJames]

We've now been informed that on my course (a music education course) we need to buy software and microphones adding up to around £4-500. Does anyone know if this is legal (universities requiring students to purchase advanced software and hardware to pass assessments) or could we challenge this?

I think it's so disappointing and indeed many students feel completely outraged and cheated, saying that the minimal risk in no way justifies these completely detrimental measures to our education. We genuinely feel like the lockdown has been tough for the young generation so far, and we feel like if this goes ahead our mental health will fall so significantly that we may struggle to stay motivated for coursework at all anymore.

Although these additional costs might depend on a few factors, it's definitely worth looking into. For example I know for one subject, there's a trip (about 4 hours distance from the uni) that is free of charge because it is part of a compulsory module, but then a different trip under an optional module requires the students to meet part of the cost. I think there's some argument to be made for the fact that this is a compulsory part of your course so you shouldn't be expected to outlay this amount of money which you didn't know about before starting the course.

Although I can't answer for sure about the legalities, I would contact the Student Union for advice, as it is possible that something can be done about this. Staff in the subject are unlikely to be able to help much to be honest, I've discussed this kind of thing with them before and it can often help if you've been to the SU first so you know what to say and do. If you do contact for advice, I'd be very interested to know how they respond.

If anyone is interested, the Universities Minister, Michelle Donelan MP, was questioned by the Petitions Committee yesterday (11/6/20), you can watch the session here:

 

[NorthOxonian]

I realise that this is an older thread but my university has just sent an email detailing its plans for the year ahead.

Small group teaching and tutorials will be going ahead virtually as normal. Lectures will be online, but only for the first term, with in person lectures likely by the second (my lectures are pretty small groups anyway so could well be in person before that). There are even plans to have some degree of social facilities reopening (unfortunately probably with social distancing which will make them pretty useless). They've said there's an element of flexibility with the changes, so what they say now could change between now and the autumn - hopefully a continued decline in cases between now and then means some of the worse rules can be scrapped.

The one rule which terrifies me is that there will be a policy encouraging face coverings. If that means I have to spend most of the next academic year wearing a mask, with all associated discomfort, then I'm not looking forward to it at all. While in theory I might be exempt from the rule, it's scant comfort (since a lot of people might just enforce the rule without realising any exceptions). And it makes me worried that masks are going to become the permanent normal, which makes me desperately sad.

 

[6862]

We've had no university-wide update for a while, but it seems that capacity for postgraduate research is slowly increasing, although it is still only a fraction of what it was before all this. There is a slim chance I might be able to work some shifts or week on/week off within a couple of months, and that is keeping me going now.

 

[NorthOxonian]

We've had no university-wide update for a while, but it seems that capacity for postgraduate research is slowly increasing, although it is still only a fraction of what it was before all this. There is a slim chance I might be able to work some shifts or week on/week off within a couple of months, and that is keeping me going now.

As far as I know research in my department is going to be fine (our practical sessions are unaffected and use the same equipment in similar ways). However statisticians essentially just need paper and computers, and the computers used in the department are already separated (the only issue could be the cooling system since ventilation can cause issues).

 

[BJames]

I realise that this is an older thread but my university has just sent an email detailing its plans for the year ahead.

Small group teaching and tutorials will be going ahead virtually as normal. Lectures will be online, but only for the first term, with in person lectures likely by the second (my lectures are pretty small groups anyway so could well be in person before that). There are even plans to have some degree of social facilities reopening (unfortunately probably with social distancing which will make them pretty useless). They've said there's an element of flexibility with the changes, so what they say now could change between now and the autumn - hopefully a continued decline in cases between now and then means some of the worse rules can be scrapped.

The one rule which terrifies me is that there will be a policy encouraging face coverings. If that means I have to spend most of the next academic year wearing a mask, with all associated discomfort, then I'm not looking forward to it at all. While in theory I might be exempt from the rule, it's scant comfort (since a lot of people might just enforce the rule without realising any exceptions). And it makes me worried that masks are going to become the permanent normal, which makes me desperately sad.

This is interesting. I'm not really convinced that people our age really want to wear face coverings to be honest, and I suspect this policy isn't quite going to work out (fortunately my university has not said any such nonsense... yet...).

I'm glad to hear that they're getting people back where possible and we need to encourage this across all institutions for consistency and fairness. I reckon it's possible by September that the social facilities will open largely without social distancing.

Edit: Actually, it's looking like there will be some consistency... I've just come across this article: https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ing-in-person-teaching-from-autumn-poll-finds

This states that "As predicted surge in deferrals looms, 97% [of Universities] say they will offer some face-to-face tutoring" - looks like Universities are realising that nobody wants all teaching to be done online.

 

[startingaparty]

Now is the best time to go university. Spend 3-4 years in education funded by the state and ride out the worst of the recession and come out of it with a degree under your belt!

 

[Reliablebeam]

This is interesting. I'm not really convinced that people our age really want to wear face coverings to be honest, and I suspect this policy isn't quite going to work out (fortunately my university has not said any such nonsense... yet...).

I'm glad to hear that they're getting people back where possible and we need to encourage this across all institutions for consistency and fairness. I reckon it's possible by September that the social facilities will open largely without social distancing.

Edit: Actually, it's looking like there will be some consistency... I've just come across this article: https://www.theguardian.com/educati...ing-in-person-teaching-from-autumn-poll-finds

This states that "As predicted surge in deferrals looms, 97% [of Universities] say they will offer some face-to-face tutoring" - looks like Universities are realising that nobody wants all teaching to be done online.

This squares with what I am hearing from collaborators. Certainly in the sciences, I have heard of a few universities planning to enforce mask wearing for activities in confined spaces or close contact with others, for example working with a colleague in a microscopy suite - sounded like this would be applicable to research and teaching labs.

 

[Huntergreed]

Excellent news today from Scotland that schools are now planning to reopen in August full time to all pupils with no social distancing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53139895

Scottish schools are aiming to reopen full-time with no physical distancing in August if coronavirus continues to be suppressed, John Swinney has said.

Schools had been preparing to return with a "blended" model of face-to-face teaching and at-home learning.

But the education secretary said "significant progress" had been made in controlling the spread of the virus.

Mr Swinney said ministers were now preparing for all schools to open full-time in August.

He had previously targeted having pupils spend at least half their time physically in the classroom, leading to concerns from parents.

Opposition parties said the move was a "u-turn" and a "climbdown" which had been forced by public pressure.

Is it likely that the same thing could/will happen for Universities in the coming weeks/months? It seems a little ludicrous if schools are able to reopen fully with no distancing and universities are still following a blended learning model with distancing required.

 

[underbank]

Excellent news today from Scotland that schools are now planning to reopen in August full time to all pupils with no social distancing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53139895

Is it likely that the same thing could/will happen for Universities in the coming weeks/months? It seems a little ludicrous if schools are able to reopen fully with no distancing and universities are still following a blended learning model with distancing required.

Children don't catch/spread it around. Uni students are adults so there's a greater chance of spreading it. Whilst I can certainly see the teaching at Unis starting as normal, maybe with masks in places where students are close together, I'm not so sure about the social activities which may be discouraged - even with low R rates, dozens/hundreds of sweaty bodies in nightclubs/parties etc isn't a good idea. Likewise, there may be restrictions on sports.

 

[BJames]

Children don't catch/spread it around. Uni students are adults so there's a greater chance of spreading it. Whilst I can certainly see the teaching at Unis starting as normal, maybe with masks in places where students are close together, I'm not so sure about the social activities which may be discouraged - even with low R rates, dozens/hundreds of sweaty bodies in nightclubs/parties etc isn't a good idea. Likewise, there may be restrictions on sports.

Nightclubs can't reopen until there's no social distancing (Johnson today mentioned looking at how they can be covid-secure? The only way for this to happen is that there is no virus - or that the clubs don't care - it's not possible to make it cleaner or safer). My University seems to think social distancing in their halls is going to be implemented (note: these are catered halls of residence with no flats, just long corridors). From experience in March (I know it wasn't as serious then but it's still relevant), it's not going to be possible. People will want to meet others. There are not enough staff to police it. And even if they tried to students won't care, and if they make a big fuss of it and threaten fines then they'll just go to the park instead. So I wish them luck with that proposal but it's a non-starter.

In terms of teaching, I fully agree with @Huntergreed that now is the time to reject the idea of blended learning and get students back. The one thing I will accept is I know some subjects that routinely have 400+ people in their lectures (unfortunately Medicine is one such subject so this is somewhat frustrating, alongside other popular choices like Psychology) - this is unlikely to be able to go ahead really as it's a far cry from 32 students in a classroom. I think small lectures must go ahead in person, which would especially help third and fourth years get that in-person contact that they need to support them through their last year.

Where we are actually at at my University is that as it stands now, all lectures are intended to be online, with seminars and small-group teaching in person. What is interesting is that there has been some information filtered down that we won't sit exams next year at all, and that rather it will be coursework throughout the year. I think this is quite a sensible solution really because even if things go back to normal by the start of the academic year, it doesn't really matter that the mode of assessment has temporarily changed, and if they wanted to change back to exams for the summer 2021 series they could do so relatively easily.

 

[6862]

I've been informed that from next week I'll be back to work in the lab on a week on/week off basis, with strict social distancing enforced in the lab at all times. It'll be interesting to see what impact this has on productivity, but at least it's a start - although the majority of postgraduate students at my university are still not back to work. Worryingly, there are suggestions that masks will be required at some point. The idea of doing a 10 hour day in the lab (where temperatures can reach high 20s on a summer's day) wearing a mask is not one I relish, but if that's what's required in the so-called 'new normal', we'll just have to accept it. Any updates from any of our other students on here?

 

[cuccir]

I'm a lecturer at a university, currently invovled in coordinating our teaching plans at a deparmental scale for 20-21. At the moment we're much like many of the other insititutions: planning in semster 1 for online lectures and a mixture of in-person/online small group teaching. In principle in-person teaching to be allocated at about 3 hours a week per student, but obviously this is not spread equally. Plans to be reviewed for semseter 2: plan with same restrictions, but with possibility of opening up to more in-person teaching if possible.

The main restrictions on in-person teaching are room size. Even with '1m plus' distancing, we're looking at 25-50% of normal in-person teaching capacity. So all our planning starts from there. At the moment we're working on maximizing in-preson teaching on core modules to try and deliver key skills/techniques that students should learn, and to try and make sure that first years in particular get to meet each other and some staff. We've not had any talk of 'bubbles' and I'm not sure how that would work.

We've been told that our incoming cohort is at about 75% in size of previous year... which is not too disaterous for us financially, as long things return to normal next year. I'm told that this number is about midway in our faculty (Arts, Humanities, Social Sciences): some are down to more like 50-60% while others are holding up at 90% of normal numbers. We've grown a lot in the last few years such that 75% of last year is about the size we were in 2014/15. So far surprsingly few incoming students deferring or current students asking to suspend: I am the member of staff who signs off suspensions in our department and of 455 first and second year undergraduates, just 1 has approached me about it so far.

Overall my insitution has told us that it's in a reasonable state financially, but (reading between the lines) this seems to be because it has access to a lot of cash, not because it isn't losing a lot of money. In other words, it's going to be dipping massivley into reserves and banking on income rebounding to close-to-normal levels by end of 2021.

Library and student computing facilities will be opening pretty soon - mid-July. Some buildings opening now though have just heard my office won't be available till September: some of the older buildings have had problems with water system caused by lengthy inactivity apparently!

 

[cuccir]

In terms of teaching, I fully agree with @Huntergreed that now is the time to reject the idea of blended learning and get students back. The one thing I will accept is I know some subjects that routinely have 400+ people in their lectures (unfortunately Medicine is one such subject so this is somewhat frustrating, alongside other popular choices like Psychology) - this is unlikely to be able to go ahead really as it's a far cry from 32 students in a classroom. I think small lectures must go ahead in person, which would especially help third and fourth years get that in-person contact that they need to support them through their last year.

The problem is that most universities are operating so close to capacity after a decade in expansion of numbers (and I would add: of many university bosses investing in shiny buildings full of meeting rooms rather than teaching space) that any cut in capacity becomes difficult to manage. And if the subjects which have 2-400 in their lectures have to replace some of that with smaller group in-person teaching, that's a huge amount of extra rooms needed: which means other in-person teaching also has to be dropped.

Hence why most are starting with the assumption of online lectures: it's the easiest and lowest risk format of teahcing to go online, and also the easiest to put back in person if distancing restrictions can be relaxed.

 

[BJames]

@cuccir Thanks, really good to hear from a lecturer. I would guess my University is looking at similar numbers for in person from September, and we're similarly financially stable I think but any more than a year of this and a lot of institutions could have some serious funding issues.

We seem a bit behind at my university now, I've heard these numbers from a lecturer involved in the planning:

A lecture theatre of 140 can only fit 19 students maximum
A seminar room of 45 can only fit 9 students maximum

This was based on the 2 metre rule and room layouts but even so, I hope that we can get a few more students in the rooms than that now we're moving to 1 metre plus, as it seems like quite a cautious cap on student numbers.

 

[cuccir]

A lecture theatre of 140 can only fit 19 students maximum
A seminar room of 45 can only fit 9 students maximum

Yes, that is very cautious! We've been told to plan based on overall teaching room capacity of 25%, but all rooms are being given a capacity in a multiple of 4, so that if capacity increases then it's easier logistically to merge repeat-taught classes (or indeed, if capacity reduces, to halve class sizes as well).

 

[BJames]

That makes complete sense and it's a shame we haven't got consistency across the board. I'll pop any updates on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if things change again repeatedly over the next few weeks.