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Improved Worcester service options (including WOP development)

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GWVillager

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For services would a Oxford-Hereford service work to supplement the London train along the route although the long single track does make this unlikely to be possible. (Oxford, Combe, Finstock, Charlbury, Shipton, Kingham, Moreton-in-Marsh, Honeybourne, Ecesham, Pershore, Worcestershire Parkway, Worcester Shrub Hill, Worcester Foregate Street, Malvern Link, Great Malvern, Colwall, Ledbury, Hereford)
I would instead propose a splitting of the existing Hereford trains at Oxford, with one 5-car set running fast to Worcester, (and on to Hereford if applicable) and the other stopping at all stations to Worcester. This would leave the Cotswolds stations with their valuable direct trains to London, and likely not be too expensive as the wasteful running of 9-cars beyond Worcester could be ended.

Of course, by the time they get to WOP the two trains will be sufficiently far apart to provide a useable extra service between WOP and central Worcester.
 
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Bartsimho

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I would instead propose a splitting of the existing Hereford trains at Oxford, with one 5-car set running fast to Worcester, (and on to Hereford if applicable) and the other stopping at all stations to Worcester. This would leave the Cotswolds stations with their valuable direct trains to London, and likely not be too expensive as the wasteful running of 9-cars beyond Worcester could be ended.

Of course, by the time they get to WOP the two trains will be sufficiently far apart to provide a useable extra service between WOP and central Worcester.
Yes that's probably much better but I just stayed away from splitting as that isn't in vogue currently and thus pushed against by those in charge
 

Doctor Fegg

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Splitting considerations aside, you can only have one train on the single line between Wolvercot Junction and Charlbury. So for what you're describing, the stopper would have to wait at Wolvercot for 10-11 minutes until the express clears Charlbury.

Adding 10 minutes wait to down Cotswold services wouldn't be hugely popular. I guess you could ameliorate this a bit by adding a new block section at Hanborough, so the stopper could follow the express sooner, but at that point it's no longer "not too expensive".

You then also have to think about recovery from delays when the single line is occupied by two trains one after another in the same direction, and threading it in with the other remaining section of single line, between Evesham and Norton Junction.

For what it's worth, I think the desire for fast services to Worcester is greatly overstated. But if you take the infrastructure enhancements proposed by the North Cotswold Line Taskforce (redouble Wolvercot-Hanborough and Evesham-Pershore) and throw out their abysmal proposed timetable, it's possible to work up a better timetable that still gives Worcester 2tph - one taking 2hr from Paddington to Shrub Hill and the other 2hr10 - plus potentially add a Worcester-Honeybourne stopper to get 3tph in the Vale of Evesham.
 

GWVillager

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Splitting considerations aside, you can only have one train on the single line between Wolvercot Junction and Charlbury. So for what you're describing, the stopper would have to wait at Wolvercot for 10-11 minutes until the express clears Charlbury.

Adding 10 minutes wait to down Cotswold services wouldn't be hugely popular. I guess you could ameliorate this a bit by adding a new block section at Hanborough, so the stopper could follow the express sooner, but at that point it's no longer "not too expensive".

You then also have to think about recovery from delays when the single line is occupied by two trains one after another in the same direction, and threading it in with the other remaining section of single line, between Evesham and Norton Junction.

For what it's worth, I think the desire for fast services to Worcester is greatly overstated. But if you take the infrastructure enhancements proposed by the North Cotswold Line Taskforce (redouble Wolvercot-Hanborough and Evesham-Pershore) and throw out their abysmal proposed timetable, it's possible to work up a better timetable that still gives Worcester 2tph - one taking 2hr from Paddington to Shrub Hill and the other 2hr10 - plus potentially add a Worcester-Honeybourne stopper to get 3tph in the Vale of Evesham.
Partial redoubling at the relevant points would, I think, be worthwhile. I know the cost advantage would be somewhat diminished, but it would nonetheless be an efficient and streamlined upgrade.

I would agree that demand for fast services is overstated - however it is possible that demand is somewhat suppressed by the tedious progress through the Cotswolds (albeit not by much). An improvement may help spur development in Worcester Westwards (I doubt the Cotswolds would allow much) and would bring closer ties to London. We also have to consider the new town at Worcestershire Parkway, and the potential for London XC passengers changing there instead of Birmingham or Bristol Parkway.
 

PTR 444

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My suggestion:
  • 1tph Hereford - Worcester (both stations) - Oxford - London
  • 1tph Worcester (both stations) - Oxford - London
  • 1tph Hereford - Worcester Foregate Street - Bromsgrove - Birmingham - Nottingham
  • 1tph Great Malvern - Worcester (both stations) - Gloucester - Bristol
  • 2tph Worcestershire Parkway - Worcester Shrub Hill - Kidderminster - Birmingham Snow Hill - Stratford Upon Avon
For the Cross Country Route at Worcestershire Parkway, I’d leave it unchanged for the time being, so 1tph Cardiff - Nottingham. There could be merit in stopping all Bristol - Birmingham trains there once phase 2a of HS2 is open however.
 

GWVillager

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My suggestion:
  • 1tph Hereford - Worcester (both stations) - Oxford - London
  • 1tph Worcester (both stations) - Oxford - London
  • 1tph Hereford - Worcester Foregate Street - Bromsgrove - Birmingham - Nottingham
  • 1tph Great Malvern - Worcester (both stations) - Gloucester - Bristol
  • 2tph Worcestershire Parkway - Worcester Shrub Hill - Kidderminster - Birmingham Snow Hill - Stratford Upon Avon
For the Cross Country Route at Worcestershire Parkway, I’d leave it unchanged for the time being, so 1tph Cardiff - Nottingham. There could be merit in stopping all Bristol - Birmingham trains there once phase 2a of HS2 is open however.
That would be doubling the path requirement on the GWML though, which is why I proposed splitting.
 

PTR 444

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That would be doubling the path requirement on the GWML though, which is why I proposed splitting.
But isn’t there meant to be 2tph between London Paddington and Oxford anyway? My suggestion would involve sending both along the North Cotswold Line, while reducing the train length from 10 to 5 cars at Oxford.
 

Doctor Fegg

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I would agree that demand for fast services is overstated - however it is possible that demand is somewhat suppressed by the tedious progress through the Cotswolds (albeit not by much).
The rather inconvenient truth is that, halts aside, the quietest two stations on the Cotswold Line by a very long chalk are both in the Vale of Evesham rather than the Cotswolds: Honeybourne and Pershore.

So if you want to speed up Worcester to London journeys, those are the two to drop. Good luck explaining that to Worcestershire County Council though ;)
 

PTR 444

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Personally I’d have any faster Oxford - Worcester train calling at Hanborough, Moreton-in-Marsh, Evesham and WOP. The slower train can then call at all stations with the exception of the halts that would only be served a few times a day.
 

GWVillager

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But isn’t there meant to be 2tph between London Paddington and Oxford anyway? My suggestion would involve sending both along the North Cotswold Line, while reducing the train length from 10 to 5 cars at Oxford.
I see, sorry. I thought you meant the 2nd tph should be entirely new.

The rather inconvenient truth is that, halts aside, the quietest two stations on the Cotswold Line by a very long chalk are both in the Vale of Evesham rather than the Cotswolds: Honeybourne and Pershore.

So if you want to speed up Worcester to London journeys, those are the two to drop. Good luck explaining that to Worcestershire County Council though ;)
Indeed, I wouldn't stop the expresses there. But if no services are being added, then it's not worth cutting service, and indeed no other station should lose theirs. I do just think that running half the train express would be a sensible yet relatively affordable improvement, and would go some way to bringing the line back up to true "Intercity" status.
 

Fidelis

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Interesting to read expert opinions from outside the Oxford-Hereford route catchment area.
The speeding up of the journey times from Worcester to PAD from the HSTs time of 2hrs28 min to 2 hours/2hrs.5 by IETs has helped increase passenger use.
The North Cotswold Line Task Force proposals, supported by all the County and District Councils along the line, meet the identified passenger demand for stops between Evesham and Worcester especially for onward journeys to Kidderminster and on the eastern side of the Camden Tunnel between Moreton-in-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury, Hanborough and Oxford.

Ten car 800s are a rarity but the those 9 car units in the timetable to meet recognised demand are near to capacity after Moreton in Marsh especially on Wednesdays and Saturdays. So when the 5 cars unit are used at short notice to replace 9 car units it leads to crushed services in the mornings.
If PTR44 suggestion of of train splitting is implemented, I will invite PTR44 to be present at Oxford to meet travellers there, as it was customary when Thames Turbos were used but was very unpopular, not only by passengers onwards to Worcester but those at Oxford. The introduction of HSTs was widely welcomed as they provided a faster continuous journey.

Perhaps "Local solutions for Local needs" is the best way to go forward.
 

PTR 444

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Interesting to read expert opinions from outside the Oxford-Hereford route catchment area. The speeding up of the journey times from Worcester to PAD from the HSTs time of 2hrs28 min to 2 hours/2hrs.5 by IETs has helped increase passenger use. The North Cotswold Line Task Force proposals, supported by all the County and District Councils along the line, meet the identified passenger demand for stops between Evesham and Worcester especially for onward journeys to Kidderminster and on the eastern side of the Camden Tunnel between Moreton-in-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury, Hanborough and Oxford.

Ten car 800s are a rarity but the those 9 car units in the timetable to meet recognised demand are near to capacity after Moreton in Marsh especially on Wednesdays and Saturdays. So when the 5 cars unit are used at short notice to replace 9 car units it leads to crushed services in the mornings.
If PTR44 suggestion of of train splitting is implemented, I will invite PTR44 to be present at Oxford to meet travellers there, as it was customary when Thames Turbos were used but was very unpopular, not only by passengers onwards to Worcester but those at Oxford. The introduction of HSTs was widely welcomed as they provided a faster continuous journey.

Perhaps "Local solutions for Local needs" is the best way to go forward.
I have used the North Cotswold Line on one occasion (Oxford - Charlbury last year) and I can tell you that the train I was on, a 5-car IET, carried fresh air pretty much all the way. Heading London-bound on the other hand, you’d be amazed just how many passengers get on at Oxford to fill the train up from an empty 5-car to a full and standing 10-car service.

PS: I didn’t realise some services on the North Cotswold Line used 9-car trains. Maybe I just traveled on a very quiet day.
 
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GWVillager

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I have used the North Cotswold Line on one occasion (Oxford - Charlbury last year) and I can tell you that the train I was on, a 5-car IET, carried fresh air pretty much all the way. Heading London-bound on the other hand, you’d be amazed just how many passengers get on at Oxford to fill the train up from an empty 5-car to a full and standing 10-car service.

PS: I didn’t realise some services on the North Cotswold Line used 9-car trains. Maybe I just traveled on a very quiet day.
I think you’ve mis-quoted me…

Anyway, the Cotswold Line can certainly get quite busy, but the passengers from the Cotswolds proper are unlikely to total more than a 5 coach set, as are the Worcester/Hereford passengers. Splitting does feel like the obvious decision.
 

Doctor Fegg

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I have used the North Cotswold Line on one occasion (Oxford - Charlbury last year) and I can tell you that the train I was on, a 5-car IET, carried fresh air pretty much all the way.
I have used the North Cotswold Line on (rough guess) 5000 occasions over the last 25 years and I can tell you that, late night services aside, the trains very rarely carry fresh air between Oxford and Charlbury. But I defer to your one occasion, obviously.

The North Cotswold Line Task Force proposals, supported by all the County and District Councils along the line, meet the identified passenger demand for stops between Evesham and Worcester especially for onward journeys to Kidderminster and on the eastern side of the Camden Tunnel between Moreton-in-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury, Hanborough and Oxford.
I think we'll agree to differ on that. The proposals I saw last December had 2tph at Kingham (191k passengers pre-Covid) but 1tph at Charlbury (314k passengers pre-Covid). The 2019 Strategic Outline Business Case proposes removing all the stops (save Hanborough) from the very well-used 06.43 ex Shrub Hill, which has occupied the slot of a peak commuter train for at least the 25 years I've been here, in order to give Worcester passengers a 10 minutes faster journey to London - and to try and resuscitate the DOA Kidderminster idea which failed when Chiltern tried it and which will become ever more irrelevant when HS2 is up and running.

The whole thing needs to be rethought, and this time including talking to some people from the eastern end of the line, not just councillors who represent Hanborough.
 
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PTR 444

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I think you’ve mis-quoted me…
Apologies, yes I had. I have fixed this now :)
Anyway, the Cotswold Line can certainly get quite busy, but the passengers from the Cotswolds proper are unlikely to total more than a 5 coach set, as are the Worcester/Hereford passengers. Splitting does feel like the obvious decision.
Agreed. Paddington - Oxford is by far the busiest flow along the entire route.
 

jimm

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I see, sorry. I thought you meant the 2nd tph should be entirely new.


Indeed, I wouldn't stop the expresses there. But if no services are being added, then it's not worth cutting service, and indeed no other station should lose theirs. I do just think that running half the train express would be a sensible yet relatively affordable improvement, and would go some way to bringing the line back up to true "Intercity" status.
It's a bit of s stretch to suggest that the line ever had true InterCity status - even before the worn-out track forced the removal of all but a couple of Hereford-London and back peak trains, the service in the 1960 and 1970s was in reality not much more than a semi-fast operation with an assortment of Western Region traction - Class 35, 42, 47s (best not to mention the 31s...) and Mk1 or early Mk2 stock, backed up by a few dmu stopping services in the peaks.

Its development since all-day running to and from London was reinstated in 1993 has relied heavily on income generated at the eastern end of the line - which then helped to fund extension of services all the way to Worcester, rather than turning them round at Moreton-in-Marsh, especially in the evenings - and then bolstered since 2006 by increased numbers of trains calling at Hanborough (and the expansion of places nearby, notably Witney).

For all the success of Worcestershire Parkway, a lot of traffic there is on the north-south axis, not the Cotswold Line, and if it and the city centre stations are worth a 2tph London service, then you can make a case for the same at most of the busier stations between Worcester and Oxford.

Interesting to read expert opinions from outside the Oxford-Hereford route catchment area.
The speeding up of the journey times from Worcester to PAD from the HSTs time of 2hrs28 min to 2 hours/2hrs.5 by IETs has helped increase passenger use.
The North Cotswold Line Task Force proposals, supported by all the County and District Councils along the line, meet the identified passenger demand for stops between Evesham and Worcester especially for onward journeys to Kidderminster and on the eastern side of the Camden Tunnel between Moreton-in-Marsh, Kingham, Charlbury, Hanborough and Oxford.

Ten car 800s are a rarity but the those 9 car units in the timetable to meet recognised demand are near to capacity after Moreton in Marsh especially on Wednesdays and Saturdays. So when the 5 cars unit are used at short notice to replace 9 car units it leads to crushed services in the mornings.
If PTR44 suggestion of of train splitting is implemented, I will invite PTR44 to be present at Oxford to meet travellers there, as it was customary when Thames Turbos were used but was very unpopular, not only by passengers onwards to Worcester but those at Oxford. The introduction of HSTs was widely welcomed as they provided a faster continuous journey.

Perhaps "Local solutions for Local needs" is the best way to go forward.
HSTs were in use on the line long before the first Turbo left the production line.

Splitting and joining of services at Oxford was reduced for several reasons - XC starting to run 2 tph between Banbury and Oxford and the switch of the London to Stratford-upon-Avon service to Chiltern Railways operation, thus reducing the number of GW services needed between Oxford and Banbury - and the introduction of Class 180s on London-Oxford/Cotswold Line services by FGW from late 2004. It also had the added benefit of freeing up platform time in Oxford station that the coupling and uncoupling had required. Portion working was more of a headache at times of the week when lots of non-regular/leisure travellers were around - regulars knew to be in the leading set of a formation leaving Paddington or Reading and to wait at the north end of the platform at Oxford - and Oxford passengers weren't at all fussed by it in my experience, as they could use any part of the train.
I have used the North Cotswold Line on one occasion (Oxford - Charlbury last year) and I can tell you that the train I was on, a 5-car IET, carried fresh air pretty much all the way. Heading London-bound on the other hand, you’d be amazed just how many passengers get on at Oxford to fill the train up from an empty 5-car to a full and standing 10-car service.

PS: I didn’t realise some services on the North Cotswold Line used 9-car trains. Maybe I just traveled on a very quiet day.
And on which day and at what time did you make this journey?

Like just about any route across the country, loadings vary across the day and week. So yes, there are some Cotswold Line trains where a 5-car set is quiet, while there are others that are busy enough to need a 9-car set.
 
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