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Reforming Sheffield's Buses
- Thread starter TheGuy77
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YorkRailFan
On Moderation
Franchising, as what was recommend to the South Yorkshire Combined Authority.
I remember the X99 from Sheffield to Scarborough.
Trainman40083
Member
If you are not careful, you could waste all that money, and have nothing gained in the longer term.
Reverse the dreadful bus partnership network changes particularly in October 2015 which upset & drove passenger’s away & into cars.
Reopen Pinstone Street & Leopold Street in City Centre to buses with buses going back to their old routes via High Street. Better stops on here & Leopold Street than a stop on a pole & connected to a lamp post with no protection in poor weather.
Invest in electric/hydrogen buses, for it’s size Sheffield must have the lowest amount of electric/hydrogen buses in the country.
More frequent timetables, most routes are on a Saturday type frequency. Improve the terrible 2 hourly frequencies some route have.
That was done to prop up the poor X1 & X2 which are no where near as popular as first thought. The X3 is still faster than X2 to Doncaster which takes around 2 hours. X3 is 1 hour 30.
Reopen Pinstone Street & Leopold Street in City Centre to buses with buses going back to their old routes via High Street. Better stops on here & Leopold Street than a stop on a pole & connected to a lamp post with no protection in poor weather.
Invest in electric/hydrogen buses, for it’s size Sheffield must have the lowest amount of electric/hydrogen buses in the country.
More frequent timetables, most routes are on a Saturday type frequency. Improve the terrible 2 hourly frequencies some route have.
That was done to prop up the poor X1 & X2 which are no where near as popular as first thought. The X3 is still faster than X2 to Doncaster which takes around 2 hours. X3 is 1 hour 30.
Yes. Increase the frequency of the 18 / 18A to start.
Trainman40083
Member
Derby doesn't have any electric or hydrogen buses. Indeed one of the main operators has just ordered 29 more diesels. As for buses from Sheffield or Meadowhall to Doncaster. I'd just catch the train and be there quicker.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Often the frequency expressed in buses per hour is quite good, but the lack of coordination means headways are typically far longer than they need to be.
The 52, for example, generally runs with 15 min gaps followed by a First and a Stagecoach bus chasing each other. Aside from being a blatantly stupid way to run a bus service from a passenger perspective, this causes issues in the city centre as there isn't enough room for the rear of the pair to stop near the end of Fargate without obstructing the flow of traffic along High Street.
Let's get the basics right first. Make sure everywhere has a bus service, including evenings and Sundays and at an acceptable frequency. Ensure there are enough drivers and buses for the service to be reliable. Ensure bus priority measures are properly enforced and maybe even expanded, so journey times can be attractive and reliable. Sort out the city centre bus routes and stops, we still have the temporary arrangements from after the first Coronavirus lockdown!
Secondly do the buses go where and when passengers want to go? Demand has changed, buses haven't. Tendered services are the worst for this with local authorities ticking boxes rather than providing a useful service.
Thirdly, where multiple routes serve the same corridor, there are examples of poorly coordinated timetables. An example of this is Abbeydale Road in the evening where buses 75, 76, 97 and 98 all run hourly providing four buses an hour but only a half hourly combined frequency as they run in pairs!
Services like the 24/25, 52/52a and 120 also seem to have lost the coordination they had pre covid under the bus partnership.
Finally cross border services, which could get worse under bus franchising as local authorities put up a glass wall at the county boundary.. there is no multi operator / multi modal ticket that includes both Sheffield and Derbyshire, there is no bus service between Bradway and Dronfield, there are no buses to Sheffield from villages like Holmesfield and Apperknowle whilst Ridgeway and Coal Aston are very poorly served compared to nearby places such as Lowedges, Jordanthorpe, Birley and Gleadless.
Secondly do the buses go where and when passengers want to go? Demand has changed, buses haven't. Tendered services are the worst for this with local authorities ticking boxes rather than providing a useful service.
Thirdly, where multiple routes serve the same corridor, there are examples of poorly coordinated timetables. An example of this is Abbeydale Road in the evening where buses 75, 76, 97 and 98 all run hourly providing four buses an hour but only a half hourly combined frequency as they run in pairs!
Services like the 24/25, 52/52a and 120 also seem to have lost the coordination they had pre covid under the bus partnership.
Finally cross border services, which could get worse under bus franchising as local authorities put up a glass wall at the county boundary.. there is no multi operator / multi modal ticket that includes both Sheffield and Derbyshire, there is no bus service between Bradway and Dronfield, there are no buses to Sheffield from villages like Holmesfield and Apperknowle whilst Ridgeway and Coal Aston are very poorly served compared to nearby places such as Lowedges, Jordanthorpe, Birley and Gleadless.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
A very measured post, and not just the "the answer is franchising - now what's the question?"
Remember that when Sheffield City Council brought in their Clean Air Zone, they excluded private cars as they wanted to target the worst polluting vehicles... Much more electorally safe than a per capita calculation
That said, there are some quite extensive bits of bus priority but it needs to be better linked. Better enforcement too - traffic congestion pays no respect to the logo on the side of the bus!The whole Buses for Sheffield initiative that was brokered by the PTE was so badly managed in terms of publicity and execution. I'd be concerned about their ability to take on greater responsibility; I find them one of the weaker PTEs.
As for coordination of headways etc... I'll take your word on that.
The PTE no longer exists, the organisation was wound up a few years ago and replaced by the Mayoral Combined Authority.A very measured post, and not just the "the answer is franchising - now what's the question?"
Remember that when Sheffield City Council brought in their Clean Air Zone, they excluded private cars as they wanted to target the worst polluting vehicles... Much more electorally safe than a per capita calculation
The whole Buses for Sheffield initiative that was brokered by the PTE was so badly managed in terms of publicity and execution. I'd be concerned about their ability to take on greater responsibility; I find them one of the weaker PTEs.
As for coordination of headways etc... I'll take your word on that.
Who runs the buses I think is something of a red herring, however the place we're in is different to before Covid and if franchising unlocks things like funding, ability to coordinate the network and the inclination of the council to play their part then it could be a positive thing, however a lot of money has to be spent restructuring first!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Sorry - I know they're combined authorities. Just a regression to an archaic term - they were PTEs much long than CAs to me.
You are right - it is the fundamental ability to run buses that's important. And that doesn't mean a blank cheque to increase PVRs by padding out timetables to ensure reliability.
It seems like the 2015 consultation is causing all the problems. How would you guys fix them?
I'm surprised how similar the routings are to those I found as a student at Sheffield University in the 1960s- i.e 60 years ago- give-or-take a tram or so!
Buses seemed to me more-or-less turn-up-and-go, but then I walked a lot (esp DOWNhill!)
The main difference I perceive to be the City Centre, and I note the need for effective shelters and would add realtime next buses information.
'Country' buses ran from Pond Street Bus Station, conveniently located for the (Midland) Rail Station, and I dare say folk would like those to be more frequent. I liked the easy access to the Peak District (72 to Castleton?), and the Inner and Outer Circulars. But that's nostalgic me. Hopefully 'the Council' in whatever incarnation has 'professionals' with good data on which to base such proposals.
Buses seemed to me more-or-less turn-up-and-go, but then I walked a lot (esp DOWNhill!)
The main difference I perceive to be the City Centre, and I note the need for effective shelters and would add realtime next buses information.
'Country' buses ran from Pond Street Bus Station, conveniently located for the (Midland) Rail Station, and I dare say folk would like those to be more frequent. I liked the easy access to the Peak District (72 to Castleton?), and the Inner and Outer Circulars. But that's nostalgic me. Hopefully 'the Council' in whatever incarnation has 'professionals' with good data on which to base such proposals.
Using one area i know as an example, Bradway, the complaints are
- Journey time to the City centre too slow, up to 50 minutes to go 5 miles!
- no evening service (last bus back from the city centre is 8pm)
- no bus to Abbeydale Road or London Road
- no bus to Dronfield
- link to medical centre at Jordanthorpe is limited to just a few trips a day
- buses are regularly cancelled, sometimes even the last one at night leaving passengers stranded.
The current network however is now well established and tearing everything up and starting again isn't always helpful, I'd get the current network working first - fill in the gaps such as restoring lost evening and Sunday services, get services reliable, then look at where there is new connections that could be added to fulfil demand not currently catered for.
There are some easy fixes to all these problems.
We could start off by extending the 86 and 24 to Bradway, as well as a full route on Evenings and Sundays,
so the last bus from the City Centre would be around 11pm. We could even have London-Style night buses, which would be extended to places like Crystal Peaks, Swallownest (24/25) and High Green (86).
We could then extend the M17 to Dronfield Station (via Coal Aston), following the route of the 44. Have 2 buses running the route (Half-hourly frequency) and have it run 6am-Midnight and you would have 27-ish buses on the M17, 5 times as much as now.
It seems like making buses better is easier than you think, you just need some actual funding from an actually good government.
If anybody wants me to fix other areas of Sheffield's bus services, please let me know.
I'd perhaps go for the option of extending the 86 to Dronfield via Bradway.
Coal Aston could the 1 extended beyond Jordanthorpe, however the best bet would probably be to simply improve the frequency of the 44.
M17 needs it's hours of operation increasing, at least to include the school run! There options to extend route - maybe merge with the 181, but it's a little local bus that does what it does and sometimes simple = more reliable.
Night buses if brought back need to be done differently. Licencing hours are different so you can't just have two trips, one when pubs shut and one when clubs shut anymore as there are pubs open until 3am and clubs until 6am. Lots of competition from Uber, Bolt and the like now too. Night buses would need to run regularly and not charge premium fares.
Incidentally until first axed the 24 extension to Bradway and cut back the operating hours of the rest of the route the last bus was 23.32.
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Tap on tap off only really works if everything is on the same system, ie same operator. First is the only operator with a tap on tap off system and it only caps within First operator specific products. It's also proved passengers do not like the concept, don't trust it and choose not to use the system. Those that pay cash, which includes those on low incomes, cannot use it anyway.
Multi operator/modal passes are available (Travelmaster) and are well used, although less so now it's £2 a ride on buses.
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,225
In a list of other major towns and cities in the UK would the bus service in Sheffield rank lower than any of the following:
Nottingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry, Reading, Brighton, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Bristol etc…
Nottingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry, Reading, Brighton, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Bristol etc…
Killingworth
Established Member
Oh for turning the clock back, to when buses were still the first and only choice for most journeys. By 1957/8 that was coming to an end, about the time of this extract from the route 22 timetable joining Bradway to Dronfield Woodhouse and the city half hourly. The 86 also served Bradway and Holmesfield.
Ok. What about this?
Abolish route 43A. It is a completely useless, hourly service which (mostly) follows the 24.
Displace the buses that run there on a new route running from Holmesfield to Meadowhall. (numbered something like 17). To begin with at Holmesfield (Main Road/Cartledge Lane), the buns runs up Holmesfield Road until it meets Carr Lane where it continues up Northern Common and Rod Moor Road. It then turns left to get to the Redcap where it turns around at Bradway. It goes back up Bradway Road, past Hemper Lane with the 76 and follows it up to Scarsdale Road at Woodseats. It then follows the 18 up to the City and then the 137 to finish off at Meadowhall.
Abolish route 43A. It is a completely useless, hourly service which (mostly) follows the 24.
Displace the buses that run there on a new route running from Holmesfield to Meadowhall. (numbered something like 17). To begin with at Holmesfield (Main Road/Cartledge Lane), the buns runs up Holmesfield Road until it meets Carr Lane where it continues up Northern Common and Rod Moor Road. It then turns left to get to the Redcap where it turns around at Bradway. It goes back up Bradway Road, past Hemper Lane with the 76 and follows it up to Scarsdale Road at Woodseats. It then follows the 18 up to the City and then the 137 to finish off at Meadowhall.
Harpers Tate
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 May 2013
- Messages
- 1,724
Throw away the entire current network. The biggest mistake made in 2015 was not doing so. That proposal was little more than a tinkering around the edges of the then network, with little gain.
Start afresh with a ground-up re-analysis of the flow of people in the entire area, extending to and including the nearby larger places like Chesterfield and Worksop (including their residential suburbs). Map this "latent demand" and then calculate the best way of meeting it using the entire suite of "not-car" options, integrated.
For example only (so, not necessarily accurate)
- there may be an unsatisfied latent demand between the huge housing development around Gateford (Worksop) and Sheffield.
- the most effective not-car way to move people between these places may be by bus to a nearby rail station, thence by train.
So, provide for both and integrate them. Fares, tickets, schedules, connections. The whole thing.
Longer routes need to be faster and/or more direct. Using one route/vehicle to provide for longer distance travellers whilst meandering around as many housing estates and other "diversions" as possible renders use of the route unattractive.
Expand this process out to the entire region. That becomes the core. Add socially necessary links to this.
Conceptually - buses consist of a "virtual tram" core network of unchanging, frequent, limited stop, fairly direct routes, supplemented by local feeders, again, integrated. And those together further integrated with existing and/or expanded tram and train routes.
Start afresh with a ground-up re-analysis of the flow of people in the entire area, extending to and including the nearby larger places like Chesterfield and Worksop (including their residential suburbs). Map this "latent demand" and then calculate the best way of meeting it using the entire suite of "not-car" options, integrated.
For example only (so, not necessarily accurate)
- there may be an unsatisfied latent demand between the huge housing development around Gateford (Worksop) and Sheffield.
- the most effective not-car way to move people between these places may be by bus to a nearby rail station, thence by train.
So, provide for both and integrate them. Fares, tickets, schedules, connections. The whole thing.
Longer routes need to be faster and/or more direct. Using one route/vehicle to provide for longer distance travellers whilst meandering around as many housing estates and other "diversions" as possible renders use of the route unattractive.
Expand this process out to the entire region. That becomes the core. Add socially necessary links to this.
Conceptually - buses consist of a "virtual tram" core network of unchanging, frequent, limited stop, fairly direct routes, supplemented by local feeders, again, integrated. And those together further integrated with existing and/or expanded tram and train routes.
So basically you're saying that we should go back to the drawing board and recreate the routes to integrate with new housing developments and tram and rail services? That would be a good idea, but doing a mammoth task like that would cause backlash at first. Perhaps a really long, like 3-month-long consultation should take place with public surveys could do the trick.
Resuwen
Member
Edinburgh is pretty much the gold standard
For the link from Coal Aston & Apperknowle to Sheffield revise the useless 43a which carries no one into a 44a to serve these areas or split the 252 with a 253 each hourly covering it as well. The 252 doesn’t really need every 30 minutes or much bigger than a Solo.
For the Dronfield to Bradway there could be a way of rerouting the M17 to serve these areas. Or extend the Chesterfield to Dronfield services through to Bradway & Lowedges possibly also terminating at St James Retail Park.
For the Dronfield to Bradway there could be a way of rerouting the M17 to serve these areas. Or extend the Chesterfield to Dronfield services through to Bradway & Lowedges possibly also terminating at St James Retail Park.
Are you talking about the 15 / 16?