Incorrect Short Fare Accusation

[007Bond16]

Hi All,

Hope all is well - Im just looking for some advice on the back of a letter/email I have received from Northern Rail regarding buying tickets that do not cover my entire journey.

For context, my company has 2 offices, one in salford and one close to deansgate station. My location varies between the 2 offices depending on requirements etc and can sometimes be a last minute call.

As I will always be travelling to salford crescent, I purchase 3/4 tickets from the ticket office at my departing station using cash from there to salford crescent. Its easier to do it this way so that 1. I dont have to queue everyday at office 2. I dont spend wednesday’s train ticket money on a tuesday at dinner for example. On the days I need to attend the deansgate office, I simply purchase a return journey from Salford to Deansgate return. This ensures I have a valid ticket/s for my journey.

It would appear that Northern have picked up on the short journey patterns between salford and deansgate. Obviously I will be replying to them to let them know my situation, however I dont keep my paper tickets so how can I prove that I have been buying them as I almost always use cash to do so?

Ive been doing this for nearly 2 years, surely if I was fare dodging I would be caught by ticket conductor on train, I wouldnt be able to get out station at salford and I also wouldnt be able to get out station at deansgate?

I will be letting them know that I am willing to amend my purchase process to ensure both tickets are digital to avoid any confusion/accusations like this in future.

Is there anything else you think I need to consider?

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you upload a copy of the correspondence you hgave received from Northern (with any reference numbers etc. redacted)? Have you responded to this yet?

 

[007Bond16]

For info - I have obviously kept a ticket that I used when i was in the salford office this week when I didnt need to purchase a digital ticket to deansgate - it was scanned at salford on my way out. But the date is after the email obviously and am paranoid it looks suspicious that i magically have a ticket the day after?

 

[AlterEgo]

It would appear that Northern have picked up on the short journey patterns between salford and deansgate. Obviously I will be replying to them to let them know my situation

No, don't. Because:

, however I dont keep my paper tickets so how can I prove that I have been buying them as I almost always use cash to do so?

...you actually have no evidence to substantiate what you do.

Do not reply ever to any fishing correspondence even if innocent. No comment to any and all questions, ignore the correspondence, shift your ticket buying to another app which doesn't tell tattle tales to train companies.

They have no evidence of abuse. Do not talk to them.

 

[007Bond16]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you upload a copy of the correspondence you hgave received from Northern (with any reference numbers etc. redacted)? Have you responded to this yet?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I would definitely suggest replying with the details of the journeys you make, as above, but decline an interview. If you don't reply and then change your purchasing behaviour that will just make them even more suspicious and they will probably hound you.

As for your journeys to different destinations - it looks like a Bolton - Deansgate ticket costs exactly the same as a Bolton - Salford Crescent one so you would be better off just buying Bolton - Manchester tickets and only travel as far as Salford when necessary. You would save money and it doesn't look suspicious.

 

[007Bond16]

I would definitely suggest replying with the details of the journeys you make, as above, but decline an interview. If you don't reply and then change your purchasing behaviour that will just make them even more suspicious and they will probably hound you.

As for your journeys to different destinations - it looks like a Bolton - Deansgate ticket costs exactly the same as a Bolton - Salford Crescent one so you would be better off just buying Bolton - Manchester tickets and only travel as far as Salford when necessary. You would save money and it doesn't look suspicious.

Hi there, I think I would feel more comfortable replying to them as opposed to not doing just incase the next letter is a date in court. Re. price of journeys, I have only realised this when looking today. Sometimes I do travel from Westhoughton instead of Lostock which is a 40p difference between salford and deansgate destination and thus have always presumed that it would be the same on the lostock line. In actual fact i have been paying more than actually needed by purchasing the extra ticket instead of just getting the paper ticket to deansgate in the first instance!!

 

[ainsworth74]

To be clear you've never been found on the train and had details taken for fare evasion? That's how I'm reading it but want to make sure I'm not getting myself confused. Therefore this is the first contact you've had from Northern regarding this?

 

[007Bond16]

To be clear you've never been found on the train and had details taken for fare evasion? That's how I'm reading it but want to make sure I'm not getting myself confused. Therefore this is the first contact you've had from Northern regarding this?

Hi, that’s correct. I assume some AI data monitoring has just picked up on the salford crescent- deansgate return tickets and has flagged me down as short faring

 

[John R]

For info - I have obviously kept a ticket that I used when i was in the salford office this week when I didnt need to purchase a digital ticket to deansgate - it was scanned at salford on my way out. But the date is after the email obviously and am paranoid it looks suspicious that i magically have a ticket the day after?

So unlike other occasions you recently bought an online ticket for your main journey?

I can certainly see why Northern might not believe your explanation. It would seem unusual to always use cash for your main journey, but then buy an online ticket for the short hop. Especially as the price to the two stations is the same, as you now understand.

So I would definitely advise you not to respond, as I think you will struggle to get them to believe you.

 

[007Bond16]

So unlike other occasions you recently bought an online ticket for your main journey?

I can certainly see why Northern might not believe your explanation. It would seem unusual to always use cash for your main journey, but then buy an online ticket for the short hop. Especially as the price to the two stations is the same, as you now understand.

So I would definitely advise you not to respond, as I think you will struggle to get them to believe you.

Hi - No i mean i have just kept a paper ticket for my main journey since receiving the email - as this is evidence. The online ticket for the short hop is needed as I can sometimes already be on the train before finding out where I need to be that day hence the ease of just buying an “add on” ticket to extend my journey

 

[AlterEgo]

I would definitely suggest replying with the details of the journeys you make, as above

This will generate more questions of increasing difficulty. Under no circumstances should the OP engage with the process.

Eventually they might find something a little suspicious - note that the OP cannot even substantiate their version of events as they say they buy from a station in cash (of course - there is no record!). As you have already noted, the OP's purchases do not even make financial sense. It's an extremely suspicious answer to give "I promise I buy tickets all the time, but in cash, never kept a record, but the short fares are all legitimate and yeah I guess I buy those online and not in cash". There are very many questions a good investigator will ask and it's easy to pick the whole lot apart, innocent or not.

Best for people here to learn that shutting up is the best defence.

Hi there, I think I would feel more comfortable replying to them as opposed to not doing just incase the next letter is a date in court.

Why do they think they are inviting you to an interview? Why would the company waste their time doing that, do you think, if they already have all the evidence of wrongdoing they need?

Hi - No i mean i have just kept a paper ticket for my main journey since receiving the email - as this is evidence.

Of what? What do you think that proves? it shows that since you received the email, you have been buying the correct ticket, and nothing else.

 

[Haywain]

I am with those who say you shouldn't reply. However, I think you need to appreciate how unlikely your explanation sounds - it isn't credible that you always buy in cash for your main journey and yet buy a digital ticket if you happen to need to go to Deansgate (which, as you must be aware, doesn't have barriers). It is far from a normal pattern of ticket buying.

 

[007Bond16]

Hi all - appreciate all the comments - may ignore/not reply then in the first instance. Should I continue what I am doing and save all evidence of paper ticket for if/when a follow up letter/email is sent or do I just start buying full journey on one ticket going forward (but then makes it more suspicious?)

 

[Adam Williams]

This will generate more questions of increasing difficulty. Under no circumstances should the OP engage with the process.

I would suggest OP listens to @AlterEgo and @Haywain - in fact it's quite frustrating to continually see threads of this nature where good advice ("do not engage, it's a fishing exercise") is drowned out by suggestions that do no good for the original poster.

I think I would feel more comfortable replying to them

And this is exactly what they're banking on; an emotional response that leads to you incriminating yourself further.

If you're intent on replying despite the advice given here, I'd urge you to speak to a solicitor first.

 

[007Bond16]

This will generate more questions of increasing difficulty. Under no circumstances should the OP engage with the process.

Eventually they might find something a little suspicious - note that the OP cannot even substantiate their version of events as they say they buy from a station in cash (of course - there is no record!). As you have already noted, the OP's purchases do not even make financial sense. It's an extremely suspicious answer to give "I promise I buy tickets all the time, but in cash, never kept a record, but the short fares are all legitimate and yeah I guess I buy those online and not in cash". There are very many questions a good investigator will ask and it's easy to pick the whole lot apart, innocent or not.

Best for people here to learn that shutting up is the best defence.


Why do they think they are inviting you to an interview? Why would the company waste their time doing that, do you think, if they already have all the evidence of wrongdoing they need?


Of what? What do you think that proves? it shows that since you received the email, you have been buying the correct ticket, and nothing else.

To be fair - it shows that i do go to salford crescent and leave that station some days in addition to the digital tickets that show i exit deansgate station - validating my story - however i will not reply as you suggest - do you think i should continue doing what i do and saving evidence going forward and starting to pay on card at ticket office or just start buying full tickets either on app(suspicious) or just in paper format. I could also get a weekly pass etc i suppose meaning my journeys arent on an app etc

 

[Bertie the bus]

I would suggest OP listens to @AlterEgo and @Haywain - in fact it's quite frustrating to continually see threads of this nature where good advice ("do not engage, it's a fishing exercise") is drowned out by suggestions that do no good for the original poster.

What several people on here fail to understand is being falsely accused of something is upsetting and stressful to a lot of normal people. On a very recent thread, where they actually had been short-faring, the OP was told to ignore the request for an interview and that the TOC would continue to contact and threaten them. Innocent people don't want that and don't deserve it either, so the advice to reply is of use to the OP.

 

[Haywain]

Should I continue what I am doing and save all evidence of paper ticket for if/when a follow up letter/email is sent or do I just start buying full journey on one ticket going forward (but then makes it more suspicious?)

When letters like this are sent they have two objectives - one is to recover money that is owed through short faring and the other is to 'put the frighteners on' so that you stop short faring. You should settle for satisfying them on the latter of those objectives.

What several people on here fail to understand is being falsely accused of something is upsetting and stressful to a lot of normal people.

So is having demands for money which is what will inevitably follow if a response is sent. It is important that people understand their rights.

so the advice to reply is of use to the OP.

It may be of use but should not be given in isolation - you need to also advise what is likely to follow. The OP has told us that they are innocent but with a ticket buying pattern that is barely credible and, conveniently, cannot be disproved.

 

[185]

Northern often conduct trap operations where, eg Salford Crescent is locked down, and therefore anyone entering the station would have a scan from the RPIs showing on the ticket, thus any tickets purchased that day from that station without a scan from the RPIs have simply... come from somewhere else. Unless they have parachuted into the station.

 

[Pushpit]

To be fair - it shows that i do go to salford crescent and leave that station some days in addition to the digital tickets that show i exit deansgate station - validating my story - however i will not reply as you suggest - do you think i should continue doing what i do and saving evidence going forward and starting to pay on card at ticket office or just start buying full tickets either on app(suspicious) or just in paper format. I could also get a weekly pass etc i suppose meaning my journeys arent on an app etc

If you are clear that you have done nothing wrong, then you should not waste your time helping out some AI bot. From what you have said so far, and in absence of any key missing detail, I'm in the group which says "don't feed the beast".

Going forward you need to check and double check that every time you step on a train, particularly in the next 6 months, you have a fully valid ticket and in date railcard if appropriate. By all means photo each ticket if you want, to retain your own record, but that's feeding the beast too, in a way, you should not really need to do this.

If you ignore the letter I suspect you will get another, slightly more stroppy letter saying they are about to pass the file to their prosecution team. Again designed to unsettle you.

 

[tatitiliti]

Hi All,

Hope all is well - Im just looking for some advice on the back of a letter/email I have received from Northern Rail regarding buying tickets that do not cover my entire journey.

For context, my company has 2 offices, one in salford and one close to deansgate station. My location varies between the 2 offices depending on requirements etc and can sometimes be a last minute call.

As I will always be travelling to salford crescent, I purchase 3/4 tickets from the ticket office at my departing station using cash from there to salford crescent. Its easier to do it this way so that 1. I dont have to queue everyday at office 2. I dont spend wednesday’s train ticket money on a tuesday at dinner for example. On the days I need to attend the deansgate office, I simply purchase a return journey from Salford to Deansgate return. This ensures I have a valid ticket/s for my journey.

It would appear that Northern have picked up on the short journey patterns between salford and deansgate. Obviously I will be replying to them to let them know my situation, however I dont keep my paper tickets so how can I prove that I have been buying them as I almost always use cash to do so?

Ive been doing this for nearly 2 years, surely if I was fare dodging I would be caught by ticket conductor on train, I wouldnt be able to get out station at salford and I also wouldnt be able to get out station at deansgate?

I will be letting them know that I am willing to amend my purchase process to ensure both tickets are digital to avoid any confusion/accusations like this in future.

Is there anything else you think I need to consider?

Unless you’re caught in the act, there’s nothing they can do. Always ignore all correspondence to fishing exercises as they’re not designed to help you, they’re designed to help the TOC.

 

[Haywain]

Going forward you need to check and double check that every time you step on a train, particularly in the next 6 months, you have a fully valid ticket and in date railcard if appropriate.

Always - the mention of 6 months has no relevance here.

 

[007Bond16]

Honestly just a massive shout out to all the people on here just offering free advice to people - more people like you required in the world. You do so much for people, more than you would know. Ive gone from hardly sleeping lastnight thinking Im going to end up in court as I cant prove my innocence to complete relief after your reassurance that they cannot actually do anything. Going forward i am just going to buy a flexi ticket every month which gives me 8 trips in 4 weeks that will be to deansgate. If i need to get off at salford then fine and if i do need to get off at deansgate, my ticket is covered. It just avoids any confusion/suspicion in future and hopefully i dont hear anything further. If i do, Ill let you know. Thanks again all

 

[AlterEgo]

What several people on here fail to understand is being falsely accused of something is upsetting and stressful to a lot of normal people. On a very recent thread, where they actually had been short-faring, the OP was told to ignore the request for an interview and that the TOC would continue to contact and threaten them. Innocent people don't want that and don't deserve it either, so the advice to reply is of use to the OP.

That’s too bad. This isn’t an anxiety clinic.

Replying will generate much more incisive and much more stressful questions, and the OP’s explanation looks suspicious to an investigator in any case. Not that’s it’s of utmost importance; the OP’s interests are best served by not engaging with the company whatsoever. And certainly not attending a PACE interview.

 

[Pushpit]

Always - the mention of 6 months has no relevance here.

Generally, yes. But if in the next 6 months they identify a problem with a booking, they have immediate leverage on the past situation, subject of this topic. So my suggestion is not to give that leverage with special attention for the next six months given there is a current issue. Thereafter, yes - those who do not steal from the railways tend to have fewer difficulties than those that do, but I was giving advice specific to the back story here.

 

[007Bond16]

Generally, yes. But if in the next 6 months they identify a problem with a booking, they have immediate leverage on the past situation, subject of this topic. So my suggestion is not to give that leverage with special attention for the next six months given there is a current issue. Thereafter, yes - those who do not steal from the railways tend to have fewer difficulties than those that do, but I was giving advice specific to the back story here.

do you recommend i continue doing what im doing (perfectly legal albeit i can see how it looks suspicious) to ensure i have evidence if they come back further down the line or do you think i should change what im doing immediately which may also look suspicious and will have no evidence to prove my innocence

 

[saismee]

do you recommend i continue doing what im doing (perfectly legal albeit i can see how it looks suspicious) to ensure i have evidence if they come back further down the line or do you think i should change what im doing immediately which may also look suspicious and will have no evidence to prove my innocence

You can keep evidence of your innocence but you'll have no need for it as you say you aren't guilty. It is entirely up to them to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you have been committing a crime, which they cannot do without having an RPI stop you with an invalid ticket.

I agree with others - don't reply at all. They'll continue to threaten (mentioning court, fines, police, etc) but if they have no proof then it's all just baseless threats.

 

[John R]

do you recommend i continue doing what im doing (perfectly legal albeit i can see how it looks suspicious) to ensure i have evidence if they come back further down the line or do you think i should change what im doing immediately which may also look suspicious and will have no evidence to prove my innocence

Anything you do now will not be evidence of what you were doing before you got the letter.

But as has been noted, you need to be absolutely certain you always have a valid ticket from now on, not just for the next six months. If you are caught, even for an accidental lapse, a year down the line, Northern could make any settlement offer conditional on the amount they think you underpaid in the past. And that could make it very expensive.

 

[Haywain]

But if in the next 6 months they identify a problem with a booking, they have immediate leverage on the past situation, subject of this topic.

They don't because they haven't actually caught the OP doing anything. They are speculating based on what they have seen in the OP's Trainline history.

 

[John R]

They don't because they haven't actually caught the OP doing anything. They are speculating based on what they have seen in the OP's Trainline history.

I think the point is that if they do in future identify (ie catch) the OP without a valid ticket, say because they mistakenly buy a ticket after boarding, they will use the opportunity to include all the past transactions where they suspect fraudulent behaviour in any settlement offer.