Invalid ticket due to my own mistake

[thomasg]

I was planning to travel from Heaton Chapel to Stockport, and return a few hours later.

I bought a day return ticket from Heaton Chapel to Stockport on the Northern app prior to boarding my train for my outbound journey.

On my return journey from Stockport, I realised that the train was not stopping at Heaton Chapel and was instead going directly to Manchester Piccadilly. This was entirely my mistake for not checking the departures board before boarding the train.

When I realised my mistake (just a few minutes into the journey), I bought a return ticket from Heaton Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly on the app. I naively assumed that this would cover the shortfall in my original ticket. I planned to use this extra ticket to travel to Manchester Piccadilly and back to Heaton Chapel.

The conductor appeared a few minutes later and refused to accept my Heaton Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly ticket since it was purchased after the train had departed.

He took my name, address and date of birth. He advised that a penalty would be in the post within the next few days. I was given no paperwork whatsoever.

I would really appreciate any advice please. Were my tickets valid? And what would the next steps be?

 

[AlterEgo]

I would really appreciate any advice please. Were my tickets valid?

No; if the train didn't stop at Heaton Chapel then your tickets weren't valid and this is a Bylaw 18 (1) offence:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

And what would the next steps be?

Which company are you dealing with?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aside from the usual advice about trying to settle, you may, once a settlement has been agreed and paid (and not before), want to go to the Press over this. Northern (and other TOCs) have been the subject of bad press recently, and penalising someone who has accidentally got on the wrong train and tried to regularise the situation the best they could is even lower than the Railcard related issues unearthed thus far.

Legally they have you bang to rights, but once settled (so they can't escalate to prosecution) and assuming they aren't going to unearth anything if they look at your purchase history I would absolutely seek to drag their name through the mud over something so mind numbingly petty and jobs worthy. It might even result in you getting your settlement back, though probably not.

First step, when the letter arrives redact any personal information and reference numbers and post here and we can advise on what to do. My first step would probably be simply to honestly and fully explain what happened, and maybe they will see sense and settle simply for the Anytime Day Single fare from Stockport to Manchester, which isn't a huge sum (indeed I'm very surprised they didn't just sell you that). Sometimes sense does prevail - sometimes!

 

[AlterEgo]

First step, when the letter arrives redact any personal information and reference numbers and post here and we can advise on what to do. My first step would probably be simply to honestly and fully explain what happened, and maybe they will see sense and settle simply for the Anytime Day Single fare from Stockport to Manchester, which isn't a huge sum (indeed I'm very surprised they didn't just sell you that). Sometimes sense does prevail - sometimes!

I suspect what has guided the decision to withdraw/report here is the extremely short ticket from Heaton Chapel to Stockport, just one stop and about a mile and a half.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect what has guided the decision to withdraw/report here is the extremely short ticket from Heaton Chapel to Stockport, just one stop and about a mile and a half.

People do genuinely do this journey, just like I've got a load of MKC<->Bletchley tickets on my Trainline account all of which were actually used to do that journey.

If the extra bit was purchased before the inspector appeared, I stick to my view that it's beyond petty. If it was bought after the OP had seen them then I can see it as potentially suspicious, though the OP obviously knows if their intentions were honest or not (and if not they should probably not post it here - hence my mention of whether anything actually suspicious may be in their online account such as repeated actual short faring).

There's little reason to short fare on Manchester to Stockport, it's cheap anyway.

 

[thomasg]

Thank you for all of the advice, really appreciate it.

Which company are you dealing with?

This is Northern

If the extra bit was purchased before the inspector appeared, I stick to my view that it's beyond petty. If it was bought after the OP had seen them then I can see it as potentially suspicious, though the OP obviously knows if their intentions were honest or not (and if not they should probably not post it here - hence my mention of whether anything actually suspicious may be in their online account such as repeated actual short faring).

There's little reason to short fare on Manchester to Stockport, it's cheap anyway.

This was a genuine error. My car was being repaired near Heaton Chapel, and I decided to do some Christmas shopping in Stockport while waiting. I have never been to either of these stations previously. I had no intention or reason to travel to Manchester. This can be somewhat proven by the fact that I returned to Heaton Chapel on the next available train after arriving in Manchester.

The extra ticket (from Heaton Chapel to Manchester, and back) was purchased as soon as the announcement was made. It was well before the conductor was in view or entered the carriage. In hindsight, perhaps I should have purchased a whole new ticket from Stockport to Manchester, however I doubt this would have helped matters.

 

[robbeech]

Just to clarify, the train is booked to run fast, it wasn’t skipping Heaton Chapel on this occasion or anything like that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The extra ticket (from Heaton Chapel to Manchester, and back) was purchased as soon as the announcement was made. It was well before the conductor was in view or entered the carriage. In hindsight, perhaps I should have purchased a whole new ticket from Stockport to Manchester, however I doubt this would have helped matters.

It is fairly counterintuitive, but if you end up on the wrong train it's usually better (on a train with a guard) to proactively find them and explain the problem rather than buy another ticket to try to resolve it yourself, as the latter is often seen in the wrong way. Often this won't result in being charged anything at all.

 

[Belperpete]

I was just about to post the same as Bletchleyite. Did you just wait until the conductor got to you, checking tickets? I would expect anyone who knows they have got on the wrong train to be concerned about how they are going to get to where they want to go, and actively seeking help. Just passively sitting and waiting for your ticket to be checked would make me suspicious.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

No; if the train didn't stop at Heaton Chapel then your tickets weren't valid and this is a Bylaw 18 (1) offence:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

This is the statutory position so is all that you can expect to happen. On the basis of what we have seen from other threads, it's likely that Northern will give you the chance to settle out of court for a 'fixed penalty' of maybe £100 plus the fare.

Depending on how far you want to pursue the matter it might be worth looking at the other suggested options, but bear in mind that those all come down to Northern's willingness to be flexible - which may be hard to predict.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the statutory position so is all that you can expect to happen. On the basis of what we have seen from other threads, it's likely that Northern will give you the chance to settle out of court for a 'fixed penalty' of maybe £100 plus the fare.

Depending on how far you want to pursue the matter it might be worth looking at the other suggested options, but bear in mind that those all come down to Northern's willingness to be flexible - which may be hard to predict.

Usually the process is to be sent a letter asking for an explanation, which should be given fully and honestly, and then a settlement is offered. There's then a small chance they may settle for just the fare, but the OP does need to be open to paying a larger settlement. Sometimes Northern seem to send the settlement first with a line of "if you have any mitigation please write in with it" - in that case there is the small risk of the settlement being increased or withdrawn, though, so the OP may prefer to simply pay it as the lowest-risk strategy if they do do it this way.

Assuming the OP is being honest I absolutely would go to the local Press with it, though, particularly as it's Northern involved. It'll just add to their ammunition against the pettiness of their revenue protection which seems primarily geared up to making money by sending £100 settlements to people with minor ticketing issues rather than strategically catching those who just flat refuse and threaten staff. I would not however do this until any such settlement has been paid and accepted, otherwise there's a fair chance it might be withdrawn vindictively and prosecution pursued.

 

[thomasg]

Just to clarify, the train is booked to run fast, it wasn’t skipping Heaton Chapel on this occasion or anything like that?

No, it looks like it was intended to be a direct service to Manchester, which did not stop at Heaton Chapel. Totally my mistake for boarding it.

It is fairly counterintuitive, but if you end up on the wrong train it's usually better (on a train with a guard) to proactively find them and explain the problem rather than buy another ticket to try to resolve it yourself, as the latter is often seen in the wrong way. Often this won't result in being charged anything at all.

Interesting, thank you! I naively assumed that it would be fine because I had a valid ticket from Stockport to Heaton Chapel, and another valid ticket from Heaton Chapel to Manchester. I now understand neither were technically valid because the train wasn't scheduled to stop at Heaton Chapel.

I was just about to post the same as Bletchleyite. Did you just wait until the conductor got to you, checking tickets? I would expect anyone who knows they have got on the wrong train to be concerned about how they are going to get to where they want to go, and actively seeking help. Just passively sitting and waiting for your ticket to be checked would make me suspicious.

No, I bought the tickets on the app as soon as I realised I was on the wrong train. The conductor was nowhere in sight at this time. The purchase was complete before he was in the carriage. I knew it was only a short distance, so I kicked myself for the mistake and planned to just get the next available train back to Heaton Chapel. But I understand how it looks suspicious to the conductor, so thanks for the advice.

 

[Belperpete]

No, I bought the tickets on the app as soon as I realised I was on the wrong train. The conductor was nowhere in sight at this time. The purchase was complete before he was in the carriage. I knew it was only a short distance, so I kicked myself for the mistake and planned to just get the next available train back to Heaton Chapel. But I understand how it looks suspicious to the conductor, so thanks for the advice.

You misunderstand. Once you saw the conductor, did you get up and go to him to seek his help, or did you just sit and wait while he worked his way checking tickets until he got to you? Most people who have gotten on the wrong train would actively seek help. Just sitting and waiting until he checked your ticket could look like you were hoping he wouldn't notice anything wrong with your ticket.

Interesting, thank you! I naively assumed that it would be fine because I had a valid ticket from Stockport to Heaton Chapel, and another valid ticket from Heaton Chapel to Manchester. I now understand neither were technically valid because the train wasn't scheduled to stop at Heaton Chapel.

And just to clarify, if you had bought a Stockport to Manchester ticket while on board the train, that too would likely have been treated as invalid.

AFAIA, if you make the mistake of getting on the wrong train, that the ticket you hold isn't valid for, you have no way of rectifying that. You are reliant on the conductor (and potentially other staff) accepting that you have made a mistake, and letting you off the offense of travelling without a valid ticket. It is therefore important that you don't do anything that makes them suspect you of ticket fraud. Unfortunately short faring is a common form of ticket fraud, as is attempting to buy the correct fare on board when a ticket inspector appears. Whereas most people who have genuinely gotten on the wrong train tend to be more concerned about how they are going to get to their destination, and how long that could take, rather than the validity of their ticket.

 

[fandroid]

The OP has already paid, in total, way over the odds (in percentage terms) for their travels. If they have any proof of their car being at Heaton Chapel (dated bill?) they should try to argue for Northern (with appropriate apologies) to set the issue aside.

 

[thomasg]

You misunderstand. Once you saw the conductor, did you get up and go to him to seek his help, or did you just sit and wait while he worked his way checking tickets until he got to you? Most people who have gotten on the wrong train would actively seek help. Just sitting and waiting until he checked your ticket could look like you were hoping he wouldn't notice anything wrong with your ticket.

No, I did not approach the conductor.

I wrongly assumed that I had a valid ticket because I had a ticket from Stockport to Heaton Chapel, and another ticket from Heaton Chapel to Manchester. I didn't think it would be a problem, and I assumed he would just scan the tickets as normal.

I realise now that these tickets were both invalid because the train did not stop at Heaton Chapel and the second ticket was purchased after the departure.

I didn't really need any help because I knew how to get back from Manchester to Heaton Chapel. In hindsight, it probably would have been more favourable to seek out the conductor and explain my predicament.

The OP has already paid, in total, way over the odds (in percentage terms) for their travels. If they have any proof of their car being at Heaton Chapel (dated bill?) they should try to argue for Northern (with appropriate apologies) to set the issue aside.

Yes, I paid more than a ticket from Stockport to Manchester would have cost. Unfortunately, I now understand that my "split" ticket wasn't valid for a number of reasons.

I have invoices from the garage in Heaton Chapel, so can easily prove my car was there. I guess it's harder to prove that I didn't intend to go into Manchester though.

 

[pedr]

It doesn't change the legal position, but there is some evidence that you didn't intend to go to Manchester if the Heaton Chapel to Manchester ticket wasn't scanned, or if you needed to scan both the outward and return close together to change platforms. Are there ticket gates at Heaton Chapel which would have created a scan record for the return Manchester to Heaton Chapel ticket?

When the letter arrives it may be worth thinking about how to reply, or whether to query any settlement sum Northern proposes. It's possible they could be convinced that this isn't a case where there's any need to pursue this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't change the legal position, but there is some evidence that you didn't intend to go to Manchester if the Heaton Chapel to Manchester ticket wasn't scanned, or if you needed to scan both the outward and return close together to change platforms. Are there ticket gates at Heaton Chapel which would have created a scan record for the return Manchester to Heaton Chapel ticket?

Heaton Chapel is a small wayside station. It is staffed but not gated.

 

[thomasg]

It doesn't change the legal position, but there is some evidence that you didn't intend to go to Manchester if the Heaton Chapel to Manchester ticket wasn't scanned, or if you needed to scan both the outward and return close together to change platforms. Are there ticket gates at Heaton Chapel which would have created a scan record for the return Manchester to Heaton Chapel ticket?

When the letter arrives it may be worth thinking about how to reply, or whether to query any settlement sum Northern proposes. It's possible they could be convinced that this isn't a case where there's any need to pursue this.

Thanks. There are no ticket gates at Heaton Chapel, so my ticket was never scanned there.

At Manchester Piccadilly, my ticket was scanned when exited the platform onto the concourse (to view the departures board to find the next train back to Heaton Chapel). It was then re-scanned a few minutes later when entering the platform again.

 

[AdamWW]

I realise now that these tickets were both invalid because the train did not stop at Heaton Chapel and the second ticket was purchased after the departure.

Though if the train did stop at Heaton Chapel, I can't see any offence committed by buying the second ticket after boarding the train so long as if was before the train reached Heaton Chapel.

Also - a technicality perhaps - it's an offence to board a train without a valid ticket (except of course where there are exceptions) but I have yet to see a convincing justification that a ticket purchased after boarding is invalid in itself.

You misunderstand. Once you saw the conductor, did you get up and go to him to seek his help, or did you just sit and wait while he worked his way checking tickets until he got to you? Most people who have gotten on the wrong train would actively seek help. Just sitting and waiting until he checked your ticket could look like you were hoping he wouldn't notice anything wrong with your ticket.

I must be quite unusual. If I realised I was going to override my stop and saw a conductor enter the carriage I was in, I'd probably wait until they got to me rather than walking down the aisle and demanding that they dealt with me first.

Whereas most people who have genuinely gotten on the wrong train tend to be more concerned about how they are going to get to their destination, and how long that could take, rather than the validity of their ticket.

Sort of feels that people can't win here. Make an honest mistake with a ticket - get fined. Worry about the consequences of an honest mistake and try to rectify it...ah that must be evidence of bad intent.

And if someone knows that they'll have to get off at the next station and then get a train going back the other way why would they go and ask a staff member what to do?

 

[Haywain]

Though if the train did stop at Heaton Chapel,

If it had done, the OP would have left the train.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

According to the guard, the OP`s "offence" was buying the Heaton Chapel to Manchester ticket after the train had departed Stockport. The OP`s actual offence, identified by this forum but not by the guard, was his holding tickets which split at a station where the train didn`t stop.

Where a passenger accidentally boards a wrong train, the normal remedy is to direct him/ her to the best way of recovering the intended destination. Over the years I`ve seen/ overheard countless passengers aiming for Leeds board a Manchester train at Bradford Interchange. The invariable response from the guard has been get off at Halifax, cross to the other side of the island platform, tell the guard of the next train what has happened.

Unless Northern have been reading this thread, they don`t know that an offence has actually been committed. On this occasion the offence is surely one of "genuine mistake" as highlighted by the recent Secretary of State.

 

[talldave]

The OP has already paid, in total, way over the odds (in percentage terms) for their travels. If they have any proof of their car being at Heaton Chapel (dated bill?) they should try to argue for Northern (with appropriate apologies) to set the issue aside.

Indeed, despite probably paying more for the travel undertaken than actually necessary, the TOC wants to punish the OP for making a mistake and attempting to rectify it in a way that left the TOC financially better off than if they hadn't. Of course, they didn't hand over their money & travel in a "legal" way, but it's this petty mindedness that gives the rail industry a bad image.

My advice to the OP would be to additionally find evidence of the actual time of their payment to the garage.

 

[magpiespy]

I suspect what has guided the decision to withdraw/report here is the extremely short ticket from Heaton Chapel to Stockport, just one stop and about a mile and a half.

Stockport is the second most popular destination from Heaton Chapel. It is a short distance, and there are plentiful buses from nearby on the A6, but there is a deep valley between the stations, which makes walking or cycling less attractive.

 

[Haywain]

Stockport is the second most popular destination from Heaton Chapel. It is a short distance, and there are plentiful buses from nearby on the A6, but there is a deep valley between the stations, which makes walking or cycling less attractive.

Which is all fine if you are on a train that calls at Heaton Chapel.