Issue: New Street to Euston

[neilp]

Today (29 November) I travelled from New Street to Euston on a London Northwestern only off-peak return. I do this regularly for work, and have always taken the 8.14 service to Northampton, changing onto the 9.24, which arrives into Euston just before 10.30. Because the ticket conditions on the London Northwestern website state that off peak tickets are valid on services arriving in Euston after 10am, I assumed this was fine. In fact, my ticket has been checked frequently on this service over the past year, so many staff also appear to believe it is valid.

This morning the conductor announced that off peak tickets were not valid on the 8.14. I checked with him and was informed I could not travel on the service, and the issue was that I had not bought the ticket from London Northwestern. I contacted the company on Twitter who confirmed that my ticket was valid on trains arriving in Euston after 10am, but that it was not valid on that service because of an “anomaly”.

Does anyone have any idea what is going on here? I have been acting in good faith over the past year and there has been no information anywhere to suggest I have been doing anything wrong. I am a bit freaked out that I could have got into trouble, and upset that these anomalies exist. It is hard not to see this as designed to catch out the law abiding traveller. In the end I got the 8.33 to Euston and arrived about 15 minutes later than I would had I travelled via Northampton. However, this is not the issue here.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[gray1404]

You ticket is not valid on the first you intended to travel on.

The 8.14 services that terminates at Northampton is the issue. Your ticket carries restriction code SK which states:

"Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:00.

Not valid on any other journeys timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45."

So it cannot be used for departures before 08.45 sadly. Likewise it was not valid on the 8.33 either so count yourself lucky you were not required to pay an excess.

These restrictions apply Monday to Friday.

 

[Haywain]

It would appear that you might not have read all of the restriction code (SK) details (which we can all be guilty of). It's the second of the two lines below that is relevant in this case, and I think it might be stretching things to call it an anomaly:

Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:00.

Not valid on any other journeys timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit of an odd wording, but:

Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:00.

Not valid on any other journeys timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45.

Break of journey is not permitted on the outward portion except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.

I guess journey is being interpreted to mean individual train.

HOWEVER, if you look at the actual coded restrictions on brfares.com these aren't implemented quite as that says, and so I reckon you should get an itinerary for this ticket on this train. If you can, it's valid by definition, so I'd suggest buying online with an itinerary. I can get an itinerary for the 0733 easily, you'd need to play with change times in Trainsplit to get one for the 0814 I reckon.

Not that the TOC won't "fix" that of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

It would appear that you might not have read all of the restriction code (SK) details (which we can all be guilty of). It's the second of the two lines below that is relevant in this case, and I think it might be stretching things to call it an anomaly:

From my experience of LNR's slightly odd use of restrictions (which generally use the idea that they only care about the arrival time towards London OR the departure from London*, and the other stuff is in there for if your ticket doesn't go to London or you've broken your journey) I would indeed suspect this alleged invalidity is unintentional. Indeed if you look at the unpublished restrictions it looks like an itinerary on an Off Peak would be issued just fine for this, and I can get one for the same thing earlier in the day, indeed.

It strikes me as "collateral damage" from trying to put too much in one restriction code when they should really have used three to cover slightly different situations - one for tickets to Euston, one for tickets to stations between MKC and Harrow inclusive, and one for tickets going nowhere near London. It's not as bad as the Avanti "everything on the WCML" one but it does need improving.

However I think if the OP buys this against an itinerary, which they should be able to do by fiddling with change times on Trainsplit, then the TOC has no leg to stand on if e.g. a PF is issued.

* e.g. all the Super Off Peaks contain "A connection may be used to continue a journey begun at a valid time".

 

[Haywain]

From my experience of LNR's slightly odd use of restrictions (which generally use the idea that they only care about the arrival time towards London OR the departure from London*, and the other stuff is in there for if your ticket doesn't go to London or you've broken your journey) I would indeed suspect this alleged invalidity is unintentional. Indeed if you look at the unpublished restrictions it looks like an itinerary on an Off Peak would be issued just fine for this, and I can get one for the same thing earlier in the day, indeed.

I agree that they seem to have previous for writing restrictions in a way that makes them difficult to interpret, and have no argument with your interpretation.

However I think if the OP buys this against an itinerary, which they should be able to do by fiddling with change times on Trainsplit,

If bought with an itinerary the ticket should, of course, be accepted for travel against that exact itinerary.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Trainsplit will sell an Off-Peak Return for travel on the 0814 from Birmingham, but only if you catch the 0951 from Northampton as the 0924 doesn't meet the 5 minute minimum connection time. Though if you're doing that, you may as well catch that train from Birmingham at 0833 and not change.

As an aside, Worldline WebTIS also offers the Off-Peak on the 0733 from Birmingham, changing onto the 0905 from Northampton.

In both cases, I'd assume this is because the 0733 and 0814 both terminate at Northampton, so don't trigger the "not valid arriving into Euston before 1000" restriction, and the trains from Northampton depart after 0845.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trainsplit will sell an Off-Peak Return for travel on the 0814 from Birmingham, but only if you catch the 0951 from Northampton as the 0924 doesn't meet the 5 minute minimum connection time. Though if you're doing that, you may as well catch that train from Birmingham at 0833 and not change.

That itinerary would still be useful, as the guard of the 0924 from NMP isn't going to question it because they only care about its arrival time at Euston, if they even bother to do tickets which there's a good chance they won't as Northampton and Bletchley guards tend not to.

 

[island]

You ticket is not valid on the first you intended to travel on.

The 8.14 services that terminates at Northampton is the issue. Your ticket carries restriction code SK which states:

"Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:00.

Not valid on any other journeys timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45."

So it cannot be used for departures before 08.45 sadly. Likewise it was not valid on the 8.33 either so count yourself lucky you were not required to pay an excess.

These restrictions apply Monday to Friday.

But the OP's journey was a journey to London Euston, so it can at least be argued that the "any other journeys" line does not apply.

 

[Watershed]

These trains were all formerly through services which have simply been split into two. It would be quite unfair for passengers to be penalised as a result, and I don't think that this is WMT's intention - as demonstrated by the lack of a bar on arrivals at Northampton, or generally on departures before 08:45 in the electronic restrictions.

I also don't think that the wording of the restriction code text can in any way be argued to prohibit usage of the 08:14. It refers to "other journeys" - but the OP's journey is undeniably to London (break of journey is now prohibited on the outward portion of these WMT only Off-Peak Returns).

Most importantly, the OP would have been able to select that train or indeed even an earlier train, on an online journey planner. NRE is also willing to validate the choice of that train in combination with that ticket.

Normally I would have said that the misleading advice by the conductor would have entitled the OP to Delay Repay. However, unfortunately as the connection to the 09:24 at Northampton is not an official one, this disqualifies any Delay Repay claim based on intending to catch that train. Yet again, this is another way in which passengers have been unfairly penalised as a result of the splitting of services.

Even though the OP doesn't have any legal entitlement to financial compensation, I'd say it is still worth them raising a complaint with WMT. No doubt they might claim that the conductor was making a generic comment, seeing as Off-Peak tickets from Birmingham to Coventry, Rugby or Northampton wouldn't be valid on that service.

However, having been asked a question about the specific ticket that the OP held, there can be no excuse for wrongly claiming that it was invalid. It's particularly concerning, given that this particular ticket is one that I'd expect the conductor would see quite commonly on that route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that just occurred to me is that this is only going to be an issue for another couple of weeks. From the December change there will no longer be any Northampton short workings, every LNR train going south on the WCML (2tph) from Birmingham Intl will go all the way to Euston bar the last evening one.

 

[Watershed]

One thing that just occurred to me is that this is only going to be an issue for another couple of weeks. From the December change there will no longer be any Northampton short workings, every LNR train going south on the WCML from Birmingham Intl will go all the way to Euston bar the last evening one.

Which will at least mean that people's journeys are no longer unnecessarily extended - though the reinstated through services will still have an annoying 10 minute fester at Northampton. Nevertheless, this situation has existed for several years during the Covid timetables, and it's not really acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which will at least mean that people's journeys are no longer unnecessarily extended - though the reinstated through services will still have an annoying 10 minute fester at Northampton. Nevertheless, this situation has existed for several years during the Covid timetables, and it's not really acceptable.

There are more things wrong with the ex-LM restriction codes than I can be bothered to type here. This is a relatively minor one.

But yes, I agree. It's caused by lazy restriction-writing, cramming too much into one code, as several TOCs do. 9I is about the worst, but few of LNR's are particularly good.

The 10 minutes at NMP will at least give time to allow some 12-car workings from Euston with 4 dropping off at NMP. None are I think presently timetabled for Dec, but I think they will end up reinstating a few (not many) once they see how the loadings distribute, as I can see a few trains that may otherwise cause issues.

 

[neilp]

Thanks for the replies. I think I understand the issues around this better now, and appreciate the insights. I have written to London Northwestern, so will await their response. One question: as someone who does not work in the rail sector, how could I have been aware of the restriction code? There is nothing on my ticket, or on any timetable or itinerary I have seen. The only information I am aware of on ticket restrictions is on the London Northwestern website, which states that off peak tickets are valid on trains arriving in Euston after 10am. Frankly, it staggers me that a rail passenger is expected to be aware of restriction codes that are not clearly and widely publicised, and which contradict information that is clearly stated on train company websites. This puts me off travelling by train, though I have very little choice because of my job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the replies. I think I understand the issues around this better now, and appreciate the insights. I have written to London Northwestern, so will await their response. One question: as someone who does not work in the rail sector, how could I have been aware of the restriction code? There is nothing on my ticket, or on any timetable or itinerary I have seen. The only information I am aware of on ticket restrictions is on the London Northwestern website, which states that off peak tickets are valid on trains arriving in Euston after 10am. Frankly, it staggers me that a rail passenger is expected to be aware of restriction codes that are not clearly and widely publicised, and which contradict information that is clearly stated on train company websites. This puts me off travelling by train, though I have very little choice because of my job.

As I said the situation is removed by the new December timetable, so I'm not sure I would worry about it too much. There is only one Northampton terminator from Brum per day in the December timetable, and it's at 11 at night. All other services without exception work through to Euston. There are just 8 working days left before it can't happen again.

For this week and next, book on Trainsplit and fiddle with it to get a relevant itinerary on the Northampton train (doesn't matter what it does after NMP).

If you're trying to get LNR to sort out general anomalies in their restriction codes good luck - I've been trying for over 10 years now!

 

[neilp]

As I said the situation is removed by the new December timetable, so I'm not sure I would worry about it too much. There is only one Northampton terminator from Brum per day in the December timetable, and it's at 11 at night. All other services without exception work through to Euston. There are just 8 working days left before it can't happen again.

For this week and next, book on Trainsplit and fiddle with it to get a relevant itinerary on the Northampton train (doesn't matter what it does after NMP).

If you're trying to get LNR to sort out general anomalies in their restriction codes good luck - I've been trying for over 10 years now!

This is not really about the specific issue relating to the service I tried to take. It is about the comments that I should have read the restriction code and should consider myself lucky not to have been required to pay an excess. I am concerned that if there is the expectation that I should be aware of all restrictions, even if they are not widely publicised and contradict what is on the train company website. The suggestion is that this is somehow my fault, which worries me, as I do not want to get into trouble when I have acted in good faith and in accordance with published ticket conditions.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

What type of ticket (paper or eticket etc) did you have and where did you purchase it? (Helps to advise where the restrictions are shown)

 

[neilp]

I had an off peak return from Droitwich Spa to London Euston on WM Trains only. I bought it on Virgin Trains Ticketing.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

What type of ticket was it? Paper or eticket etc?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

On the virgin trains Ticketing app, it has a link to the ticket conditions and then shows a restriction code with the link to the national rail website which shows the restriction times, for your selected journey it should display something similar

 

[neilp]

What type of ticket was it? Paper or eticket etc?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

On the virgin trains Ticketing app, it has a link to the ticket conditions and then shows a restriction code with the link to the national rail website which shows the restriction times, for your selected journey it should display something similar

Thanks, but my understanding from this thread is that the restriction code applies to the train rather than the ticket. If this is the case, I ask again (in general, not specifically to you), how could and should I be expected to know this? That I am not sure whether the code applies to a train or a ticket illustrates how impenetrable the system is to those who are not rail industry insiders.

 

[Haywain]

Thanks, but my understanding from this thread is that the restriction code applies to the train rather than the ticket.

The restriction code tells you/us which trains you can use with the ticket you hold. No train is exclusively off peak or peak, as different tickets will have different restrictions even on the same train.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Well that's the reason I am asking where you bought the ticket and what type of ticket do you have, ie paper or eticket

So virgin trains ticketing tells you the restrictions about the type of ticket you are purchasing as shown on those screenshots and also using your actual journey details also has the relevant link to the restrictions during the selection pocess, restriction code SK is shown within the link

 

[neilp]

Well that's the reason I am asking where you bought the ticket and what type of ticket do you have, ie paper or eticket

So virgin trains ticketing tells you the restrictions about the type of ticket you are purchasing as shown on those screenshots and also using your actual journey details also has the relevant link to the restrictions during the selection pocess, restriction code SK is shown within the link

Thanks - I can see this. I still think it is at best confusing, but like you say, it will no longer be an issue in a couple of weeks.

 

[BrianW]

This thread, like many, shows how 'the railway' treats its customers; so much for 'customer care'! Travellers are 'on the fiddle' rather than seeking to have a pleasant journey, without hassle and reasonably to time!

I can see why TOCs seek to spread loads, avoid jams etc- that's fair. Price influences journey choices. It shouldn't be down to 'small print'; or to small claims courts to pursue unfair contract terms. Words like journey (inc 'break of journey'), train, service, ticket need definition and to be used consistently and correctly.

Feeling for you <neilp>.

 

[Watershed]

This is not really about the specific issue relating to the service I tried to take. It is about the comments that I should have read the restriction code and should consider myself lucky not to have been required to pay an excess. I am concerned that if there is the expectation that I should be aware of all restrictions, even if they are not widely publicised and contradict what is on the train company website. The suggestion is that this is somehow my fault, which worries me, as I do not want to get into trouble when I have acted in good faith and in accordance with published ticket conditions.

I think you'd certainly have had a valid grievance some years back, when it was very difficult indeed to find out what Off-Peak restrictions applied to a given ticket - effectively the only way was to speak to the ticket office.

Things have changed now though, and booking sites do make the restriction code available during the booking process. It's not always necessarily particularly obvious where to find it, but the information is certainly there if you look.

There have also been significant improvements for finding out what restrictions apply, once you've bought your ticket. The link to the relevant restriction code is shown on the PDF if you have an e-ticket, as well as being printed on paper tickets.

The general information as to what's Off-Peak on operators' websites is generally very poor and can often be misleading. To be honest, operator shouldn't really be making blanket statements, because there are so many different restrictions out there that it's very difficult to give a complete and accurate answer.

All this being said, what you can rely on is the information provided to you when you buy your ticket. Your ticket will always be valid in accordance with the itinerary you have selected - this is a basic matter of consumer and contract law, and no amount of "railwaysms" override this.

 

[neilp]

I think you'd certainly have had a valid grievance some years back, when it was very difficult indeed to find out what Off-Peak restrictions applied to a given ticket - effectively the only way was to speak to the ticket office.

Things have changed now though, and booking sites do make the restriction code available during the booking process. It's not always necessarily particularly obvious where to find it, but the information is certainly there if you look.

There have also been significant improvements for finding out what restrictions apply, once you've bought your ticket. The link to the relevant restriction code is shown on the PDF if you have an e-ticket, as well as being printed on paper tickets.

The general information as to what's Off-Peak on operators' websites is generally very poor and can often be misleading. To be honest, operator shouldn't really be making blanket statements, because there are so many different restrictions out there that it's very difficult to give a complete and accurate answer.

All this being said, what you can rely on is the information provided to you when you buy your ticket. Your ticket will always be valid in accordance with the itinerary you have selected - this is a basic matter of consumer and contract law, and no amount of "railwaysms" override this.

Thanks - I did show an itinerary to the guard this morning and he said that it was irrelevant because I had not bought the ticket from London Northwestern. I assume this is not the case?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

It would appear that you might not have read all of the restriction code (SK) details (which we can all be guilty of). It's the second of the two lines below that is relevant in this case, and I think it might be stretching things to call it an anomaly:

For what it is worth, the term anomaly was used by a London Northwestern employee on Twitter, not by me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

This thread, like many, shows how 'the railway' treats its customers; so much for 'customer care'! Travellers are 'on the fiddle' rather than seeking to have a pleasant journey, without hassle and reasonably to time!

I can see why TOCs seek to spread loads, avoid jams etc- that's fair. Price influences journey choices. It shouldn't be down to 'small print'; or to small claims courts to pursue unfair contract terms. Words like journey (inc 'break of journey'), train, service, ticket need definition and to be used consistently and correctly.

Feeling for you <neilp>.

Thanks - much appreciated! I just want to do the right thing. That I have got far clearer and more detailed information from this thread than from London Northwestern and it’s staff speaks volumes!

 

[WesternLancer]

I contacted the company on Twitter who confirmed that my ticket was valid on trains arriving in Euston after 10am, but that it was not valid on that service because of an “anomaly”.

I would assume the use of the term 'anomaly' here is best translated as staff who do the twitter replies not understanding the ticket eligibility rules either....

At least there are people on this forum who do understand them!

 

[Watershed]

Thanks - I did show an itinerary to the guard this morning and he said that it was irrelevant because I had not bought the ticket from London Northwestern. I assume this is not the case?

The guard's claim is complete nonsense. There are a complex set of contracts in place which allow retailers to act as the agent of the train company in selling you a ticket, and accordingly their statements are contractually binding on the train company.

In any event, even if there weren't such a framework in place, the retailer would clearly have the necessary 'apparent authority' to bind the train company - and you could also rely on section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which makes any statement that influences your purchasing decision a term of the contract.

If the train company has a problem with a ticket/itinerary that a retailer has sold, they need to take it up with the retailer - under no circumstances can they penalise the passenger, who holds a contractually valid ticket.

The most hilarious bit of it all is that you could have bought exactly the same ticket on exactly the same itinerary from WMT's own website or app. I wonder what the guard would have said if you'd shown him that!

 

[neilp]

The guard's claim is complete nonsense. There are a complex set of contracts in place which allow retailers to act as the agent of the train company in selling you a ticket, and accordingly their statements are contractually binding on the train company.

In any event, even if there weren't such a framework in place, the retailer would clearly have the necessary 'apparent authority' to bind the train company - and you could also rely on section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which makes any statement that influences your purchasing decision a term of the contract.

If the train company has a problem with a ticket/itinerary that a retailer has sold, they need to take it up with the retailer - under no circumstances can they penalise the passenger, who holds a contractually valid ticket.

The most hilarious bit of it all is that you could have bought exactly the same ticket on exactly the same itinerary from WMT's own website or app. I wonder what the guard would have said if you'd shown him that!

Thanks - that is really helpful. My question now is what recourse do I have. I am not interested in financial compensation per se, but as a matter or principle this should not have happened, and there should be some recognition of this and attempt to make amends. I am now extremely worried about having a problem with a ticket inspector when I travel in future, and that is neither right nor fair.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks - I did show an itinerary to the guard this morning and he said that it was irrelevant because I had not bought the ticket from London Northwestern. I assume this is not the case?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==


For what it is worth, the term anomaly was used by a London Northwestern employee on Twitter, not by me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==


Thanks - much appreciated! I just want to do the right thing. That I have got far clearer and more detailed information from this thread than from London Northwestern and it’s staff speaks volumes!

A formal complaint definitely needs to be submitted about this sort of behaviour.