I've got some questions about Revenue Protection Officers for a script I'm writing

[n00n]

Good morning,

I'm writing a script about a woman who works as a Revenue Protection Officer near London - the precise location has not been decided yet, the film could easily end up being shot in any of the neighbouring counties, so it's perfectly fine for your informations to be generic, or not limited to one specific area. I recently found this article which was very interesting and helped me a lot, but I still have some questions I'd like to ask:

1) Is it likely for a RPO to work frequently on the same route?

2) When a RPO issues a fine, does he/she do it on the spot or does he/she need to get off the train with the passenger in order to do so? It may sound odd, but that's the typical procedure in Italy or Germany, for instance.

3) Are there any specific lines were RPO are bound to work more frequently? Or any specific stretch?

4) What does a RPO do, specifically, besides patrolling trains and issuing fines? In the article the woman talks about taking shifts at the station ticket barriers, but I wanted to know about the other duties that the job entails.


Any other information, fun fact, anecdote, will be of great help.

Thank you in advance.

 

[yorkie]

What route(s) are you enquiring about? The answers may vary by train company and route/location.

Also sorry if this sounds pedantic but it may be helpful for me to clarify that technically speaking they can't issue fines; they can, however:

• Issue ordinary fares (the full fare or the appropriate fare);
• Issue Penalty Fares (which many people see to be similar to fines but are not legally fines) under certain circumstances, on certain operators, from certain stations; or
• Report people for prosecution which may either lead to an out of court settlement (which many people see to be similar to fines but are not legally fines) or a court case, which would result in a fine if the customer was found guilty.

 

[n00n]

Thank you, and you're not being pedantic at all, the more accurate the informations the better.

To clear it up: for the script to make sense the RPO has to issue a penalty fare to a young student, who doesn't have the ticket and has to get off the train at the next station, so they get off together and they deal with the issue then. Is this something that would likely happen? In this case, would the RPO issue an ordinary fare or a penalty fare?

Also, it's pretty crucial to the plot that the RPO works often on the same route. In the article that I linked in my first post the woman says she knows pretty well the Hertford loop, which leads me to believe there's a couple of lines where a RPO tends to work at more frequently than others.

About a specific route, here's the thing, I am not familiar enough with the London suburbs. The young student is a hockey player, and I know of two pretty big hockey clubs in London, which are the East London HC and the Bromley and Beckenham HC. He would need to take a train from a station near one of those two clubs, to a place far away enough for the fare that the RPO will issue to be substantial. It doesn't matter at which station they get off, as long as the line itself is likely to have a RPO working frequently enough on it. So, I don't know, Beckenham Junction - Sevenoaks? Stratford International - Mottingham? I'm admittedly grasping at straws here.

I know these are very specific things, I'm afraid I'm asking too much of you. If you could help me though, you would definitely end up in the movie credits, so there's that.

 

[sjoh]

Keep in mind that if your character is travelling wholly within London, any potential penalty fare would probably not be 'substantial'. Many operators calculate it at something like £20 or twice the value of the fare to the next station - whichever is highest. You're unlikely to find many potential fares across London where there'd be reason for charging anything other than the £20 in the circumstance you describe.
Not all operators use the above structure, but for the sake of a plot device it certainly wouldn't be unheard of.
For instance, Abellio Greater Anglia used the above structure for a while - they may well still do, or may have increased it, but my line is now London Overground (so I don't know) which works the TfL system which is £80 - reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay the penalty fare (or successfully appeal) within 21 days, they'll take further action.
So for instance, if you wanted a substantial amount, you might think of using a London Overground route. Having said that, ticket checks are so rare on most of it in my experience you'd be hard pushed to make it believable .

There are plenty of fare boffins on here who'll know the specifics a lot lot better than me, but just trying to give you an idea of what sort of thing could work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EMT are a PF TOC - the PF if it was first stop Leicester (are any?) would be hefty.

 

[DasLunatic]

For instance, Abellio Greater Anglia used the above structure for a while - they may well still do, or may have increased it

Last time I checked, GA's system is still £20 or double the single fare to the next station called at. I think the only fare that calls at a station fairly close to this is Chelmsford to Stratford or something involving HS1 and Southeastern.

Good luck with your project though

 

[sjoh]

EMT are a PF TOC - the PF if it was first stop Leicester (are any?) would be hefty.

Yup. The xx:58 to Sheffield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, it's pretty crucial to the plot that the RPO works often on the same route. In the article that I linked in my first post the woman says she knows pretty well the Hertford loop, which leads me to believe there's a couple of lines where a RPO tends to work at more frequently than others.
...
...

It doesn't matter at which station they get off, as long as the line itself is likely to have a RPO working frequently enough on it. So, I don't know, Beckenham Junction - Sevenoaks? Stratford International - Mottingham? I'm admittedly grasping at straws here.

I know these are very specific things, I'm afraid I'm asking too much of you. If you could help me though, you would definitely end up in the movie credits, so there's that.

Caveat here - I don't work for a Train Operating Company, so much of this will be what I can work out from my experiences, what I've been told, and what seems to be common sense.

I think in terms of how often a particular RPO might work a route, you need to answer two questions:
1) Is the route a fare dodging hot spot? I.e lots of stations without barriers, passing through sizeable urban areas, history of fare evasion, etc.
2) How big is the RPO team? I'm lead to believe that most TOC's don't really have massive teams of RPO's, so they're quite thinly spread. At a rough guess I'd say I can't think that southeastern have more than 12 for their entire metro operation.

Both of those questions are things that I think you probably have a fare bit (pun intended...) of license to play with in your plot anyway.
I've certainly recognised 2 or 3 RPOs on some routes in London that I've used, so I don't think it'd be unbelievable.

 

[yorkie]

EMT are a PF TOC - the PF if it was first stop Leicester (are any?) would be hefty.

That would not be lawful as a Penalty Fare can only be issued within one Penalty Fare scheme.

The GTR scheme extends as far as Bedford, but if the EMT train was first stop Leicester they could only charge for an Anytime Single to Leicester.

 

[n00n]

Caveat here - I don't work for a Train Operating Company, so much of this will be what I can work out from my experiences, what I've been told, and what seems to be common sense.

I think in terms of how often a particular RPO might work a route, you need to answer two questions:
1) Is the route a fare dodging hot spot? I.e lots of stations without barriers, passing through sizeable urban areas, history of fare evasion, etc.
2) How big is the RPO team? I'm lead to believe that most TOC's don't really have massive teams of RPO's, so they're quite thinly spread. At a rough guess I'd say I can't think that southeastern have more than 12 for their entire metro operation.

Both of those questions are things that I think you probably have a fare bit (pun intended...) of license to play with in your plot anyway.
I've certainly recognised 2 or 3 RPOs on some routes in London that I've used, so I don't think it'd be unbelievable.

Here's the thing: I'm not from London, I don't really know. The important thing is for the RPO to be frequently working on whichever route will serve the plot.

Do you think it's not realistic for one single RPO to work on the same route, say, if not everyday, at least twice-three times a week, around the same time of the day? Again, it could be any route. I'm at a point where is way more important to establish some actual locations and then consequentially adapt the script, rather than the other way around.

EMT are a PF TOC - the PF if it was first stop Leicester (are any?) would be hefty.

I-- didn't get any of that, sorry.

Keep in mind that if your character is travelling wholly within London, any potential penalty fare would probably not be 'substantial'. Many operators calculate it at something like £20 or twice the value of the fare to the next station - whichever is highest. You're unlikely to find many potential fares across London where there'd be reason for charging anything other than the £20 in the circumstance you describe.
Not all operators use the above structure, but for the sake of a plot device it certainly wouldn't be unheard of.
For instance, Abellio Greater Anglia used the above structure for a while - they may well still do, or may have increased it, but my line is now London Overground (so I don't know) which works the TfL system which is £80 - reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay the penalty fare (or successfully appeal) within 21 days, they'll take further action.
So for instance, if you wanted a substantial amount, you might think of using a London Overground route. Having said that, ticket checks are so rare on most of it in my experience you'd be hard pushed to make it believable.

£20 is actually fine. I was hoping for something more in the range of 50-60, but I already knew that wasn't going to be possible.
So you're saying there are routes where the RPO charge more, but it wouldn't be realistic to portray a RPO working on one of those lines on a daily basis. Which means I might as well go with a "regular" penalty instead, for the sake of the plot.

I think the only fare that calls at a station fairly close to this is Chelmsford to Stratford or something involving HS1 and Southeastern.

Cheers, but are ticket checks rare on that line as well? Because in that case, as I was saying, maybe it's not worth it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could get to just under £40 if travelling from Euston to Milton Keynes Central on a non-stop train.

 

[30907]

I-- didn't get any of that, sorry.

It starts: East Midland Trains are a Penalty Fare (issuing) Train Operating Company....

However, Yorkie's later post points out that EMT cannot issue PFs to or from London.

 

[sjoh]

Might seem a slightly odd question, but when is your script set? I ask because nowadays revenue blockades at ungated stations tend to be a more popular method of enforcement amongst London TOCs than onboad checks.

 

[fredk]

Sounds very exciting, please make sure you choose appropriate rolling stock and it remains consistent throughout if you decide to film it! It may seem quite elementary but even blockbuster films get it wrong. But that is simply my opinion as a rail enthusiast, most people won't notice. Good luck.

 

[Deerfold]

£20 is actually fine. I was hoping for something more in the range of 50-60, but I already knew that wasn't going to be possible.
So you're saying there are routes where the RPO charge more, but it wouldn't be realistic to portray a RPO working on one of those lines on a daily basis. Which means I might as well go with a "regular" penalty instead, for the sake of the plot.

Do you mean the penalty fare being charged regularly?

If the same RPO finds the same person without a ticket or with an invalid ticket they're likely to report them for prosecution rather than issuing another Penalty Fare (and this may happen with different RPOs).

The shorter the timeframe, the higher the chance that this will happen.

 

[HH]

£20 is actually fine. I was hoping for something more in the range of 50-60, but I already knew that wasn't going to be possible.

A Penalty Fare is £20, but you also have to buy the ticket, which is normally the full single fare. First Class if you were found sitting there...

On the GEML that might mean, for example, going from Liverpool St to Ipswich, a £49.20 single fare, or £77.60 for First Class.

 

[Deerfold]

A Penalty Fare is £20, but you also have to buy the ticket, which is normally the full single fare. First Class if you were found sitting there...

On the GEML that might mean, for example, going from Liverpool St to Ipswich, a £49.20 single fare, or £77.60 for First Class.

No, you pay £20 or double the single fare, whichever is higher, not £20 + single fare.

 

[Abpj17]

on GTR (Thameslink), I certainly recognise two or three RPO. They only work for one operator tho, they wouldn’t work the EMT (i.e. the intercity that goes on the same tracks as the Thameslink services) as well, for example. The radial lines out of London are all basically operated by different TOC hence different RPO.

Depending on when you date the film, there used to be a National Hockey Stadium in Milton Keynes (demolished 2010) so e.g. living in Milton Keynes or Bedford would be consistent with a young talent etc.

The equivalent in England is now based in the Lee Valley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping_Hockey_Club (and your East London etc.)

The most well known sports uni in the UK is probably Loughborough which the EMT goes to from St Pancras to Loughborough after probably getting HS1 from Stratford to St P.

The Bedford Campus of Uni of Bedfordshire is another candidate. Well known for churning out PE teachers, sports science etc. That's also an EMT destination, or the slower Thameslink trains - both going from St P. Certainly on Thameslink, I've seen the RPO get off the train with passengers.

Somewhere in the Loughborough, Leicester, Bedford, Milton Keynes area would make a lot of sense for a hockey playing sports student.

 

[n00n]

Might seem a slightly odd question, but when is your script set? I ask because nowadays revenue blockades at ungated stations tend to be a more popular method of enforcement amongst London TOCs than onboad checks.

Not an odd question at all, it's actually a very important one. I haven't decided yet, but if onboard checks used to be more frequent in, say, 2010, then I woult set the script in 2010 and that would be it. I mean I guess it would be hard for the film to be set in 1940, but pretty much any year after 2009/2010 would work.

 

[cjmillsnun]

No, you pay £20 or double the single fare, whichever is higher, not £20 + single fare.

That only covers you to the station where you got PF'd. (Or the next stop if you're caught on a train. You then technically have to buy a ticket for the rest of your journey.

 

[king_walnut]

No, you pay £20 or double the single fare, whichever is higher, not £20 + single fare.

It's £20 or the double single fare to the next destination. If they're going further than the next destination, they have to purchase a ticket to complete their journey.

There used to be a Victoria train that went non-stop from Brighton to Croydon, if there was a person on board going to Victoria without a ticket, their penalty fare would be £36 (twice the fare from Brighton to Croydon) and then I'd sell them a ticket from Croydon to Victoria.

 

[king_walnut]

1) Is it likely for a RPO to work frequently on the same route?

Yes

2) When a RPO issues a fine, does he/she do it on the spot or does he/she need to get off the train with the passenger in order to do so? It may sound odd, but that's the typical procedure in Italy or Germany, for instance.

If the person is leaving the train at the next stop, and you won't be able to complete the penalty fare in time, then yes, you'd get off the train with them.

3) Are there any specific lines were RPO are bound to work more frequently? Or any specific stretch?

Yes, there are fare evasion hot spots. For example we hit Lancing to Worthing trains a lot, but somewhere like Polegate to Lewes would be something we wouldn't make a point of targetting because there'd usually be nothing.

4) What does a RPO do, specifically, besides patrolling trains and issuing fines? In the article the woman talks about taking shifts at the station ticket barriers, but I wanted to know about the other duties that the job entails.

We would stand with Avantix ticket machines when support was needed for events (like bonfire night and Brighton pride etc). We'd also stand and be a customer service point in times of heavy disruption. Also we used to go to busy ticket offices on Monday mornings to support them with the commuter ticket rush.

I'm using the past tense because Southern got rid of their RPO's in August.


Sorry it's late, hope it helps.

 

[backontrack]

Good morning,

I'm writing a script about...thank you in advance.

Why not have it set on a terminating train? You could have the two of them get off at the terminus!

(And put me in the credits )

 

[Deerfold]

That only covers you to the station where you got PF'd. (Or the next stop if you're caught on a train. You then technically have to buy a ticket for the rest of your journey.

It's £20 or the double single fare to the next destination. If they're going further than the next destination, they have to purchase a ticket to complete their journey.

Whilst these are not wrong, as the OP said the RPI would disembark with the passenger at the next stop there would be no further fare so I did not mention it.

HH did not say you needed to buy the ticket for the rest of the journey - they said £20 plus the fare - that's what I was correcting.

A Penalty Fare is £20, but you also have to buy the ticket, which is normally the full single fare. First Class if you were found sitting there...

 

[Mark62]

I presume the RPO is someone who was once called a guard?
I always laugh when I see the farcical RPO badge emblazoned on the guards jacket.
I feel sorry for them having to put up with such rubbish.
Call a spade a spade. An RPO is a guard. There wasn't anything wrong with calling them that 30 years ago. So what's the problem now?
At least the companies can waste even more money making new badges etc. And heres me reading on BBC news how cash strapped the railways are.
There's always money for things for this nonsense but never any for the one thing that's supposed to matter.
Passengers.

 

[Deerfold]

I presume the RPO is someone who was once called a guard?
I always laugh when I see the farcical RPO badge emblazoned on the guards jacket.
I feel sorry for them having to put up with such rubbish.
Call a spade a spade. An RPO is a guard. There wasn't anything wrong with calling them that 30 years ago. So what's the problem now?
At least the companies can waste even more money making new badges etc. And heres me reading on BBC news how cash strapped the railways are.
There's always money for things for this nonsense but never any for the one thing that's supposed to matter.
Passengers.

No, a Revenue Protection Officer is not a guard. In the old days they'd probably have been called an Inspector. They don't have to stay with the same train for its entire route. They may have duties where they don't even get on a train.