Joining and dividing trains at Plymouth

[geoffk]

Since living in the south west I’ve discovered that both GWR and XC are joining and dividing some trains at Plymouth, with only one of a pair of coupled IETs or Voyagers starting from or continuing to Penzance.

On Tuesday, the Voyager working the 06.10 Derby - Plymouth was attached at Plymouth to the 09.25 from Penzance, which then ran through to Newcastle as a 9-car train, and RTT suggests this is the regular arrangement. Later the automated voice on board the 13.04 Paddington - Plymouth announced that the front portion would continue to Newquay, but this was corrected by the guard. I suppose this is what actually happened during the Boardmasters Festival, although RTT shows this train as dividing at Plymouth so only the front unit will have gone through.

Since 9-car IETs run to Penzance I assume platform lengths do not permit 2x5 cars west of Plymouth and depot space at Long Rock might also be an issue. RTT suggests that Paddington - Carmarthen trains work in a similar way, leaving one set at Swansea. If XC revert to their pre-Covid timetable their trains to the West Country will have to revert to 4 or 5 cars.

 

[ashley84]

Since living in the south west I’ve discovered that both GWR and XC are joining and dividing some trains at Plymouth, with only one of a pair of coupled IETs or Voyagers starting from or continuing to Penzance.

On Tuesday, the Voyager working the 06.10 Derby - Plymouth was attached at Plymouth to the 09.25 from Penzance, which then ran through to Newcastle as a 9-car train, and RTT suggests this is the regular arrangement. Later the automated voice on board the 13.04 Paddington - Plymouth announced that the front portion would continue to Newquay, but this was corrected by the guard. I suppose this is what actually happened during the Boardmasters Festival, although RTT shows this train as dividing at Plymouth so only the front unit will have gone through.

Since 9-car IETs run to Penzance I assume platform lengths do not permit 2x5 cars west of Plymouth and depot space at Long Rock might also be an issue. RTT suggests that Paddington - Carmarthen trains work in a similar way, leaving one set at Swansea. If XC revert to their pre-Covid timetable their trains to the West Country will have to revert to 4 or 5 cars.

Yesterday I was on the 1127 Plymouth to Newcastle, which started from Penzance as one unit and another joined at Plymouth.

The odd thing was the unit from Penzance became the front, and the rear had to shunt out of another platform after the front had arrived. Would it not have been better for the portion from Penzance to become the rear? Then passengers could start boarding the front coaches before the rear arrive?

As it was, the train was slightly late departing, through no reason other than the time taken shunting and coupling as far as I could see.

 

[irish_rail]

Yesterday I was on the 1127 Plymouth to Newcastle, which started from Penzance as one unit and another joined at Plymouth.

The odd thing was the unit from Penzance became the front, and the rear had to shunt out of another platform after the front had arrived. Would it not have been better for the portion from Penzance to become the rear? Then passengers could start boarding the front coaches before the rear arrive?

As it was, the train was slightly late departing, through no reason other than the time taken shunting and coupling as far as I could see.

I think that daft shunt is a regular thing. So what if it delays the train and connections are missed?!! (that seems to be the attitude of those that plan this sort of nonsense).

I just don't think all the problems that go with splitting and joining intercity trains is worth all the cost and hassle. You should see Laira depot on a night shift!!! The amount of staff and space needed for all this shunting would shock most people, its a lot more than what you think, completely eroding any savings made by not sending the full train into Cornwall ( heaven forbid!)

Too be fair to GWR things have improved a little lately , with more 9 and 10 car trains remaining full length throughout their entire journeys, which makes life easier all round, although I'm led to believe this is only a temporary arrangement and the south west will soon revert to the poor man of the GW network once demand increases in the east.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Too be fair to GWR things have improved a little lately , with more 9 and 10 car trains remaining full length throughout their entire journeys, which makes life easier all round, although I'm led to believe this is only a temporary arrangement and the south west will soon revert to the poor man of the GW network once demand increases in the east.

Where did you hear that, out of interest? My understanding is that it’s a permanent change, and linked to the provision of extra stabling capability at Penzance.

 

[30907]

I think that daft shunt is a regular thing. So what if it delays the train and connections are missed?!! (that seems to be the attitude of those that plan this sort of nonsense).

2 minutes, on top of a +3 from Cornwall

I just don't think all the problems that go with splitting and joining intercity trains is worth all the cost and hassle.

In this case it is, as it allows the northbound train to be 9 v 5 without finding an extra unit.

 

[The exile]

Would it not have been better for the portion from Penzance to become the rear? Then passengers could start boarding the front coaches before the rear arrive?

A few thoughts about this:

Presumably, once the passengers start boarding, the train would have to be staffed.
The coupling process would mean stopping people boarding again (which could quite easily lead to more delays than not letting them on in the first place) as I believe this has to happen with passenger doors locked.
Does the driver work through - if so, it's presumably easier if they're already at the front!
Lastly, facetiously, this way all passengers have the chance to be in that queue through the front carriage to get off quickly at Paddington ,because we all know how much time you save by alighting from the front coach instead of the sixth (!). If the Penzance portion were at the rear, Cornish passengers would have to "unit hop" en route or be so terribly disadvantaged!

 

[MCR247]

The order they’re in is probably important. The units may split later in the diagram. The one from Derby will be fresh off Central Rivers
that morning whereas the one from Penzance may be one they want to get back there or Crofton or somewhere night.

 

[dk1]

The order they’re in is probably important. The units may split later in the diagram. The one from Derby will be fresh off Central Rivers
that morning whereas the one from Penzance may be one they want to get back there or Crofton or somewhere night.

Just what I was thinking. Sometimes the operational side has to take preference. It could cause the least of all problems rather than do it at another location.

 

[pompeyfan]

I would imagine a double voyager set would be a no no beyond Plymouth heading west due to the lack of SDO?

 

[Falcon1200]

You should see Laira depot on a night shift!!! The amount of staff and space needed for all this shunting would shock most people, its a lot more than what you think, completely eroding any savings made by not sending the full train into Cornwall ( heaven forbid!)

As a Controller, until half my job was take away in 1994, I was responsible for making depots shunt units around all night. Not (just) to keep them occupied, but because specific units had to be on specific diagrams: ie those due exam must be on a diagram finishing at the maintenance depot, those coming close to exam must be able to go onto those diagrams the next day, and a careful eye had to be kept on overall fleet mileage, so that the maintenance depot did not receive no units for exam one night but say 8 the next. Not to mention getting units to locations suitable for minor repairs, or heavy cleaning, and for diesels of course fuelling too. So there is method to the madness !

 

[irish_rail]

As a Controller, until half my job was take away in 1994, I was responsible for making depots shunt units around all night. Not (just) to keep them occupied, but because specific units had to be on specific diagrams: ie those due exam must be on a diagram finishing at the maintenance depot, those coming close to exam must be able to go onto those diagrams the next day, and a careful eye had to be kept on overall fleet mileage, so that the maintenance depot did not receive no units for exam one night but say 8 the next. Not to mention getting units to locations suitable for minor repairs, or heavy cleaning, and for diesels of course fuelling too. So there is method to the madness !

I do not dispute one bit that the controllers on a depot night shift do not have their work cut out. What I disagree with is that they are in this position in the first place at Laira because of the crazy number of short IET sets that GWR are lumbered with. Laira for example cannot fit a 10 car IET into the shed so every 10 set that comes in needs to be split before each 5 car set takes up its own road. With only 4 shed through roads for overnight maintenance, the shed is very quickly full and everything then gets delayed and held up.
Utmost respect for the guys keeping things moving (including the drivers BTW as we have our work cut out when on nights!)

 

[geoffk]

Interesting replies. As always, more complicated that I thought (as a non-railwayman)!

 

[Ianno87]

I do not dispute one bit that the controllers on a depot night shift do not have their work cut out. What I disagree with is that they are in this position in the first place at Laira because of the crazy number of short IET sets that GWR are lumbered with. Laira for example cannot fit a 10 car IET into the shed so every 10 set that comes in needs to be split before each 5 car set takes up its own road. With only 4 shed through roads for overnight maintenance, the shed is very quickly full and everything then gets delayed and held up.
Utmost respect for the guys keeping things moving (including the drivers BTW as we have our work cut out when on nights!)

So, if you couldn't split a 10 into 5+5, Laira would be useless as a depot?

So 5 cars are the right solution....?

 

[Falcon1200]

Laira for example cannot fit a 10 car IET into the shed so every 10 set that comes in needs to be split before each 5 car set takes up its own road.

Fortunately the longest units I had to ask to get shunted around were only 3-cars !

 

[74A]

There is not enough passenger traffic to justify running 10 cars through to Penzance. By splitting at Plymouth the 5 cars dropped off can go back to London so you need less units overall.

 

[dk1]

There is not enough passenger traffic to justify running 10 cars through to Penzance. By splitting at Plymouth the 5 cars dropped off can go back to London so you need less units overall.

Not on all granted but many do justify a double or 9-car through Cornwall.

 

[Ianno87]

There is not enough passenger traffic to justify running 10 cars through to Penzance. By splitting at Plymouth the 5 cars dropped off can go back to London so you need less units overall.

Presumably Laira depot would be even more difficult to operate if there were enough units knocking around for absolutely everything to/from Penzance to be 10 cars? (Given that 10 cars don't fit in Long Rock)

 

[43055]

The order they’re in is probably important. The units may split later in the diagram. The one from Derby will be fresh off Central Rivers
that morning whereas the one from Penzance may be one they want to get back there or Crofton or somewhere night.

The units don't split for the rest of the day and both end up at Tyne Yard. Looking at the last few days it seems the units then work together for the following day to end up in Edinburgh before splitting overnight so perhaps its to get the right order for then?

 

[irish_rail]

So, if you couldn't split a 10 into 5+5, Laira would be useless as a depot?

So 5 cars are the right solution....?

No, 9 cars are. Fit perfectly into the shed and require fewer drivers. Win win.

Presumably Laira depot would be even more difficult to operate if there were enough units knocking around for absolutely everything to/from Penzance to be 10 cars? (Given that 10 cars don't fit in Long Rock)

Not interested in 10 cars, that's wasteful in terms of over staffing. 9 cars is the way forward.

 

[Ianno87]

No, 9 cars are. Fit perfectly into the shed and require fewer drivers. Win win.


Not interested in 10 cars, that's wasteful in terms of over staffing. 9 cars is the way forward.

I'm sure passengers would love the 10% lower capacity, or is the railway run purely to make operational staff's lives easier? Are passengers a nuisance now?

 

[Horizon22]

I'm sure passengers would love the 10% lower capacity, or is the railway run purely to make operational staff's lives easier? Are passengers a nuisance now?

A 9-car IET does not have 10% fewer seats than a 10-car; it's about 2-3% (can't remember the exact numbers). Due to the extra galley space.

10-cars do rarely travel beyond Plymouth but its a bit of a nightmare with all the short stations and no connection. 9-cars are definitely preferable. Contrary to what was said above it is definitely a medium-term ambition for more GWR Penzance services to be a 9-car; it's not just a summer plan. Some more 10-cars can be shifted to Bristol instead.

Edit: All a bit moot at the moment though considering the 800/802 troubles right now. 9 or 10, 802 or 800 it doesn't really matter at the moment!

 

[dk1]

I'm sure passengers would love the 10% lower capacity, or is the railway run purely to make operational staff's lives easier? Are passengers a nuisance now?

Is there that much difference when you take the extra driving cabs into account.

 

[Parallel]

Is there that much difference when you take the extra driving cabs into account.

I'm pretty sure it's a capacity difference of 2 seats between a 9 car and a 10 car IET.

 

[dk1]

I'm pretty sure it's a capacity difference of 2 seats between a 9 car and a 10 car IET.

Yes just looked it up. Negligible difference.

 

[MCR247]

The units don't split for the rest of the day and both end up at Tyne Yard. Looking at the last few days it seems the units then work together for the following day to end up in Edinburgh before splitting overnight so perhaps its to get the right order for then?

Yes I imagine the that originally came up from Penzance would be due to trip to a home base after those few days, whereas maybe the ex Derby has another day or two in it

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Too be fair to GWR things have improved a little lately , with more 9 and 10 car trains remaining full length throughout their entire journeys, which makes life easier all round, although I'm led to believe this is only a temporary arrangement and the south west will soon revert to the poor man of the GW network once demand increases in the east.

It’s been stated more than enough times that this isn’t a temporary arrangement but you choose to ignore this.

 

[irish_rail]

It’s been stated more than enough times that this isn’t a temporary arrangement but you choose to ignore this.

Just seems to good to be true i suppose!

I'm sure passengers would love the 10% lower capacity, or is the railway run purely to make operational staff's lives easier? Are passengers a nuisance now?

So not only is a 9 car basically the same capacity as a 10 set, the first class layout in a 9 is arguably nicer. There is also no risk of passengers for short platformed stations getting caught in the wrong portion. So better all round for passengers really. Oh and less staff technically equals lower fares so I'm guessing your average passenger really probably is better off with a 9 car set, rather than paying through their ticket for 2 sets of crew.....

 

[brick60000]

I think that daft shunt is a regular thing. So what if it delays the train and connections are missed?!! (that seems to be the attitude of those that plan this sort of nonsense).

I just don't think all the problems that go with splitting and joining intercity trains is worth all the cost and hassle. You should see Laira depot on a night shift!!! The amount of staff and space needed for all this shunting would shock most people, its a lot more than what you think, completely eroding any savings made by not sending the full train into Cornwall ( heaven forbid!)

Too be fair to GWR things have improved a little lately , with more 9 and 10 car trains remaining full length throughout their entire journeys, which makes life easier all round, although I'm led to believe this is only a temporary arrangement and the south west will soon revert to the poor man of the GW network once demand increases in the east.

Although I can’t remember what the specific reason was - I can assure you there most definitely is a reason that shunt exists!

Unnecessary shunts don’t make life easier for those in planning, it’s more work to cover from a crew perspective.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Is this the XC diagram that in normal times detaches a set at Newcastle, which then shunts to form a southbound departure while the front set continues into Scotland? If the attached set was on the front then the Penzance portion would not go through to destination, meaning passengers have to change sets and messing up the reservations etc.

Obviously there are potential ways to turn the formation at Birmingham or Newcastle itself but it depends on the paths. Remember the current Covid emergency timetables are based on the original service so rewriting / optimising everything down to the last detail hasn't been possible (or, in some cases, permitted.)

 

[Ianno87]

Is this the XC diagram that in normal times detaches a set at Newcastle, which then shunts to form a southbound departure while the front set continues into Scotland? If the attached set was on the front then the Penzance portion would not go through to destination, meaning passengers have to change sets and messing up the reservations etc.

Obviously there are potential ways to turn the formation at Birmingham or Newcastle itself but it depends on the paths. Remember the current Covid emergency timetables are based on the original service so rewriting / optimising everything down to the last detail hasn't been possible (or, in some cases, permitted.)

Yes, if you didn’t do the weird move at Plymouth, you'd have to do the opposite at Newcastle instead.