Journeys with no return fare available - is there any logic to it?

[BRX]

For some journeys there aren't any return fares (except for day returns), for some there are. Is there any logic to it?

For example,
London terminals - Chilworth (Surrey): No return fares (except for day returns)
but
Denmark Hill (station in south London) - Chilworth: off peak return (SVR) fare available
but
Denmark Hill - Gomshall (just one stop away from Chilworth): no return fares (except for day returns)

Is it something to do with the TOC that prices the fares, or some remnant from BR days, or something else?

 

[alex17595]

A Denmark hill - gomshall off peak day return is £10.30 not via London.



According to FGW.

 

[Haywain]

Denmark Hill to Gomshall has return fares on two different routes - Any Permitted and Not via London. London Terminals to Chilworth has both Anytime and Off Peak day return fares. You may have a good point about anachronisms in the fares system, but your examples are awful!

 

[BRX]

Sorry, didn't make clear that I am talking about regular off-peak returns (ie SVR) not day returns. Will edit the OP.

 

[swt_passenger]

There aren't usually any offpeak returns (SVR) on journeys less than around 35-40 miles in the southeast. This has been the case for many years. It is reputed to be a basic anti-fraud measure.

 

[BRX]

There aren't usually any offpeak returns (SVR) on journeys less than around 35-40 miles in the southeast. This has been the case for many years. It is reputed to be a basic anti-fraud measure.

Yet, there's a SVR for Denmark Hill-Guildford but not for Denmark Hill-Gomshall, even though the Guildford journey is shorter.

 

[30907]

I was surprised to find that not only Chilworth but Guildford has SVR fares from Denmark Hill (presumably London Terminals too, not checked). Very unusual for an ex-SR route in the old London Transport area

 

[BRX]

I was surprised to find that not only Chilworth but Guildford has SVR fares from Denmark Hill (presumably London Terminals too, not checked). Very unusual for an ex-SR route in the old London Transport area

It doesn't from London Terminals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The lack of SVR fares is quite annoying if you have a Network Railcard, because it means that for anything other than a weekend day trip, there are lots of journeys you can't use the railcard on because you have to buy two singles, and individually they each fall below the £13 minimum fare, even though the combined cost is well over it.

 

[RJ]

A lot of people who come to my ticket office make exactly the same comment, so I decided to start doing a bit of looking around. Open Returns are available to Heathrow and can often work out at less than the price of two singles with a Network Railcard, or any of the other railcards for that matter. What I don't understand is why fares to Heathrow usually cost more than those to Zone U1-6, but there you go!

Not that I'd ever offer such a fare

 

[island]

This question comes up from time to time, and the reasoning is, as mentioned above, that there is a high possibility of dishonourable passengers using a pair of Anytime Returns as a monthly season ticket. Off-peak returns are offered for longer journeys where there may be a genuine need to stay overnight; these are less usable for commuting fraud due to the peak time restrictions. Journeys to/from airports do tend to offer more ticket types, however.

 

[paulravuslante]

A lot of people who come to my ticket office make exactly the same comment, so I decided to start doing a bit of looking around. Open Returns are available to Heathrow and can often work out at less than the price of two singles with a Network Railcard, or any of the other railcards for that matter. What I don't understand is why fares to Heathrow usually cost more than those to Zone U1-6, but there you go!

Not that I'd ever offer such a fare

Aren't those fares for the benefit of using HEx or Connect rather than the tube?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Aren't those fares for the benefit of using HEx or Connect rather than the tube?

There are a number of destinations for travel to/from Heathrow, depending on mode of transport:

• Heathrow Bus (NLC 5564): Used for the RailAir bus/coach links via Feltham, Reading and Woking
• Heathrow Rail (NLC H584): Used for Heathrow Connect and Heathrow Express
• Zones U1256/U2356/U3456/U456/U56/U6 (Various NLCs): Journeys involving London Underground
• Heathrow Underground (NLC 0782): Through fares, again via LU, generally for longer distance journeys where a fare to U1256 isn't available

 

[jon0844]

The Thales app for Android doesn't have any reference to Heathrow in it - and you can't check fares for travel as a result.

At Hatfield, there are loads of tickets to Heathrow and some confusing ones - where the restrictions appear the same (from what the TVM shows) but at different prices - and that's not just because you have HEX and Heathrow Connect.

 

[RJ]

Aren't those fares for the benefit of using HEx or Connect rather than the tube?

I was referring to the Heathrow Underground fare which I presume is not valid for use on HeX or Heathrow Connect!

 

[Comstock]

Derby to Burton only has a day return available, which is very annoying.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I was referring to the Heathrow Underground fare which I presume is not valid for use on HeX or Heathrow Connect!

I don't think that this is written anywhere ;D

A "+ANY PERMITTED" SOS from Peterborough to Heathrow Underground appears to me to be valid to King's Cross on East Coast, cross-London transfer to Paddington, HEx to Heathrow 1/2/3, and the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow Terminal 5 - the second underground journey is separate to the cross-London transfer, and instead permitted by the destination being a London Underground station or group thereof, in the same manner that a "VIA FINSBURY PK" CDS from Stevenage to ZONE U2* LONDN is valid on the underground from Finsbury Park to Highbury and Islington.

 

[mattdickinson]

I don't think that this is written anywhere ;D

A "+ANY PERMITTED" SOS from Peterborough to Heathrow Underground appears to me to be valid to King's Cross on East Coast, cross-London transfer to Paddington, HEx to Heathrow 1/2/3, and the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow Terminal 5 - the second underground journey is separate to the cross-London transfer, and instead permitted by the destination being a London Underground station or group thereof, in the same manner that a "VIA FINSBURY PK" CDS from Stevenage to ZONE U2* LONDN is valid on the underground from Finsbury Park to Highbury and Islington.

Unfortunately the NRCOC doesn't apply to Heathrow Express, or Heathrow Connect beyond Hayes & Harlington.

 

[island]

I don't think that this is written anywhere ;D

A "+ANY PERMITTED" SOS from Peterborough to Heathrow Underground appears to me to be valid to King's Cross on East Coast, cross-London transfer to Paddington, HEx to Heathrow 1/2/3, and the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow Terminal 5 - the second underground journey is separate to the cross-London transfer, and instead permitted by the destination being a London Underground station or group thereof, in the same manner that a "VIA FINSBURY PK" CDS from Stevenage to ZONE U2* LONDN is valid on the underground from Finsbury Park to Highbury and Islington.

In theory yes. In practice no

 

[PermitToTravel]

Well, being made to leave the train at the next stop isn't so much of an imposition when it happens on HEx

 

[ashworth]

Derby to Burton only has a day return available, which is very annoying.

I find many local journeys in the East Midlands don't have return tickets for anything other than a day return. Having to purchase 2 singles if you want to return on a different day can make the journey very expensive and completely out of proportion to the day return fare.

Even on relatively long local journeys like Derby to Grantham no returns valid the next day are available. This is particularly steep when the single and day return prices are both around £12 and with no anytime return available resulting in it costing double the amount to return the next day.

It doesn't work out any better for some journeys where returns for another day are available like Mansfield to Leicester because the single fare is £11.60 and day return is just a little more at £13.80 yet the Anytime return fare is still double the single fare @ £23.10

Single fares throughout the country are often priced very high in comparison to returns and are often almost the same price as a return. This is the case in the East Midlands with Day returns. However, here we are then being charged double the single/day return fare amount to return the next day or any other following day.

 

[paulravuslante]

Well, being made to leave the train at the next stop isn't so much of an imposition when it happens on HEx

They will try to send you back however which is the most useless punishment as you get two free rides that way!!

 

[cjp]

I find many local journeys in the East Midlands don't have return tickets for anything other than a day return. Having to purchase 2 singles if you want to return on a different day can make the journey very expensive and completely out of proportion to the day return fare.

....

Single fares throughout the country are often priced very high in comparison to returns and are often almost the same price as a return. This is the case in the East Midlands with Day returns. However, here we are then being charged double the single/day return fare amount to return the next day or any other following day.

Or, to look at another way, day returns are very cheap compared to singles

 

[BRX]

Or, to look at another way, day returns are very cheap compared to singles

Or, to look at it another way, the pricing structure in the UK is a shambles.

 

[Deerfold]

Or, to look at it another way, the pricing structure in the UK is a shambles.

So what do you suggest?

And who will you disadvantage with your changes?

 

[radamfi]

The sensible thing would be to make singles half the price of the return and withdraw returns. Maybe there would need to be a slight fare increase to make the change revenue neutral. The £13 minimum fare for Network Railcards would also be harder to avoid.

 

[BRX]

So what do you suggest?

And who will you disadvantage with your changes?

Firstly I would get rid of the tangled and opaque system of using validity codes to determine which service are peak or not.

Instead I would have 3 categories of service, off-peak, shoulder and peak. Timetables would be explicit about which category each train was in. On printed timetables they could even be colour-coded. So, for any journey it would be easy to see which services fell into which category.

For each journey there would be three prices to match.

Perhaps tickets could be colour-coded too, to make everything as clear as possible.

Then, I would get rid of return tickets. There would just be singles, and a return fare would simply be the cost of the two singles.

This is where you ask "who will be disadvantaged". Well, the aim would be to set the new prices so that the overall revenue brought in would be about the same.

Inevitably, return fares would effectively go up a bit. However, the cost of singles would come right down. The idea would be that the amount the average person would spend in a year on tickets would not change very much.

You might ask what the point of all this would be if it didn't ultimately bring in more revenue or save people money. Well, it would remove the confusion and stress that is involved in buying rail tickets for most people. Also, it would save me from wasting lots of time trying to work out the cheapest way to do a journey where, say, I want to travel out by one route and back by another. Instead of poking around with the routeing guide and NRE trying to work out how I can do it in some way that avoids the expense of buying two, expensive, singles, I can just buy a single for each leg. Everything clear and simple.

 

[Deerfold]

Firstly I would get rid of the tangled and opaque system of using validity codes to determine which service are peak or not.

Instead I would have 3 categories of service, off-peak, shoulder and peak. Timetables would be explicit about which category each train was in. On printed timetables they could even be colour-coded. So, for any journey it would be easy to see which services fell into which category.

OK, we have a train going from Plymouth to Glasgow. It leaves its inital station at Plymouth at 0630 - it's fairly quiet. It gets busier as it goes along and goes through Bristol at 0830 - the height of the morning peak. By the time it gets to Birmingham it's 0956 and beginning to get quieter. At Chesterfield at 1102 it's very quiet. By the time it gets to Motherwell it's 1551 and heaving as pupils from the local schools get on.

Is this a peak train or an off peak train or a shoulder peak train? If it's peak, what time train on this route won't be? If it's off-peak expect it to be crammed fuller than now at Bristol.

For each journey there would be three prices to match.

Perhaps tickets could be colour-coded too, to make everything as clear as possible.

Then, I would get rid of return tickets. There would just be singles, and a return fare would simply be the cost of the two singles.

This is where you ask "who will be disadvantaged". Well, the aim would be to set the new prices so that the overall revenue brought in would be about the same.

Good luck with that one.

Inevitably, return fares would effectively go up a bit. However, the cost of singles would come right down. The idea would be that the amount the average person would spend in a year on tickets would not change very much.

So anyone who always does a return journey is spending more money?

You might ask what the point of all this would be if it didn't ultimately bring in more revenue or save people money. Well, it would remove the confusion and stress that is involved in buying rail tickets for most people. Also, it would save me from wasting lots of time trying to work out the cheapest way to do a journey where, say, I want to travel out by one route and back by another. Instead of poking around with the routeing guide and NRE trying to work out how I can do it in some way that avoids the expense of buying two, expensive, singles, I can just buy a single for each leg. Everything clear and simple.

You can usually do that with a return now - you do have to buy the return for the most expensive route or excess the cheaper one. For the vast majority of tickets routed "Any Permitted" it won't make any difference.

Do you still have Advances in your system or just the 3 levels?

 

[BRX]

OK, we have a train going from Plymouth to Glasgow. It leaves its inital station at Plymouth at 0630 - it's fairly quiet. It gets busier as it goes along and goes through Bristol at 0830 - the height of the morning peak. By the time it gets to Birmingham it's 0956 and beginning to get quieter. At Chesterfield at 1102 it's very quiet. By the time it gets to Motherwell it's 1551 and heaving as pupils from the local schools get on.

Is this a peak train or an off peak train or a shoulder peak train? If it's peak, what time train on this route won't be? If it's off-peak expect it to be crammed fuller than now at Bristol.

The train could be any of the three categories at points along its route. So it could be classified offpeak for the early part of the journey, peak for the bit through Bristol, etc. It would be easy to show this in printed timetables using the colour coding as I suggest. You would just look at the timetable, and if the journey you were making didn't include any of the peak bits your off-peak ticket would be valid. If it did include any of the peak bits you'd have to have a more expensive ticket.

That might sound slightly complicated but from the passenger's point of view it is a lot less complicated than trying to look up validity codes and so on. And you could still look up journeys on NRE etc just the same as now.

I suspect it would also allow finer control over shifting passengers from busy to quiet services than is possible at the moment.

So anyone who always does a return journey is spending more money?

Anyone who only ever does straightforward return journeys would pay a little more, but most people do a mixture of journey types.

You can usually do that with a return now - you do have to buy the return for the most expensive route or excess the cheaper one. For the vast majority of tickets routed "Any Permitted" it won't make any difference.

I often do journeys that involve several legs that don't fit neatly into an any permitted return. For example, last christmas/new year I did this:
London to Inverness
Mallaig to Glasgow
Glasgow to Brighton
Brighton to London

I ended up doing this with a mixture of returns and singles, including some returns which I only used part of in one direction. This was because this made it cheaper than doing everything as singles. It is a pain having to waste time fiddling around to find a combination that works, plus restrictions associated with different tickets restrict flexibility. For example, I might have like to make the stop in Glasgow on the way up, but did it on the way back because otherwise it would have been a break of journey on the outward leg of a return. I would much rather be able to buy them all as single journeys without having to worry about whether there's a cheaper way of doing with more complicated arangements.

Do you still have Advances in your system or just the 3 levels?

Advances could still be sold as they are now, alongside my 3 levels. I think there might be an argument for getting rid of advances too, but that's another (complicated) discussion.

 

[Mushtimushta]

I missed the original posting when it first appeared, but would like to return to this, if possible. The pricing policy of the London Area TOCs was to offer SVR fares where the journey was 35 miles or more each way. London to Shalford, Chilworth & Gomshall all fall below this. Peckham Rye to any of these via the "Not London" route would obviously also fall below this threshold as well, but if travelling via London, this will just push the journey above for Shalford & Chilworth. Gomshall tickets are not generally available via Guildford, but Dorking or Redhill.
The 35 miles each way philosophy is not a precise science, because of the fares groupings employed by National Rail.

 

[greatkingrat]

The train could be any of the three categories at points along its route. So it could be classified offpeak for the early part of the journey, peak for the bit through Bristol, etc. It would be easy to show this in printed timetables using the colour coding as I suggest. You would just look at the timetable, and if the journey you were making didn't include any of the peak bits your off-peak ticket would be valid. If it did include any of the peak bits you'd have to have a more expensive ticket.

That is the problem, it would be virtually impossible to make a long distance journey without some part of it being classified as "peak". So you would end up in a situation where the only way to get a cheap fare is split ticketing, eg peak ticket A-B, shoulder ticket B-C, off-peak ticket C-D.