Kincardine: Talgo train-building factory still on track despite HS2 blow

[och aye]

Follow up from this closed thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...in-building-for-first-time-in-decades.156368/

Apparently Talgo are still committed to building a factory in Fife.

Losing out on HS2 contract won't derail Talgo's plans for Longannet

TALGO missed out on a contract to supply rolling stock for HS2 but it won't derail their plans for the old power station site at Longannet.

www.dunfermlinepress.com

TALGO missed out on a contract to supply rolling stock for HS2 but it won't derail their plans for the old power station site at Longannet.


Despite their losing bid – and launching legal action in relation to the tendering process – the Spanish company said they were still on track to deliver a train-building factory at Kincardine which will create 1,000 jobs.


The HS2 contract would have allowed them to "push the button" and start building the Longannet plant earlier but it's not the end of the line.
A spokesperson for Talgo said: "When we first came forward with plans, people thought it was all predicated on this one bid but Talgo are pursuing other orders from around the world and there are other interesting opportunities in the British Isles.
"It's not only building for the UK market but also building for export that is really uppermost in our minds."
And, with both Spanish train-building factories at or near full capacity, plenty of old stock that needs replaced and renewed interest in rail travel both here and in Europe, there's a need for the factory at Longannet with or without HS2 contracts.

 

[Roast Veg]

Do we know who else is out of the running officially? Talgo are self-announcing this aren't they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Possibly Siemens, they’re mentioned in the same context as Talgo in a recent thread in the Rolling Stock forum:

HS2 Rolling Stock Tender

So it seems that Siemens are now talking about taking HS2 Ltd to court following the recent action by Talgo about a similar issue. The comment from Siemens reads As the official tender process is still ongoing, we currently cannot comment/ At this stage it looks like Alstom are probably a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mikey C]

I still find it really unlikely that Talgo would build a train building factory in the UK, without significant UK orders.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do we know who else is out of the running officially? Talgo are self-announcing this aren't they?

Train procurements are long-running campaigns, and aren't over till they're over.
There's always the possibility of a legal challenge overturning a decision, or even all the bidders being disqualified.
Talgo will want to keep their bid warm right up to the death (and so will the others).
DfT have form on revising the specifications and terms right up to the end (eg with IEP).
Delay to HS2 opening beyond 2026 makes things harder for everybody, as there's more scope for change.

 

[InOban]

It occurs to me that the Talgo site, and indeed the Siemens site (Goole, isn't it ) are both by the sea. Both could build stock for export which would be out of gauge in the UK. Talgo's Spanish factories are around Madrid I think.

 

[Clansman]

Longannet is perfectly placed as a base for rail manufacturing. An unused site right on the Firth of Forth that the government is looking to invest infrastructurally in long term, as well as nearby Rosyth with accomdation for cargo vessels, and an attractive sailing distance to Scandanavia and North East Europe - it isn't difficult to see what the appeal factor is for Talgo.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Longannet is perfectly placed as a base for rail manufacturing. An unused site right on the Firth of Forth that the government is looking to invest infrastructurally in long term, as well as nearby Rosyth with accomdation for cargo vessels, and an attractive sailing distance to Scandanavia and North East Europe - it isn't difficult to see what the appeal factor is for Talgo.

It is but where is the demand coming from in this country over next 2-3 years? European countries ain't going to like there stock built here unlike us who don't worry about the impact it has on local jobs so its bold investment that they will only make, like Nissan has, because govt subsidises it somehow.

 

[Clansman]

It is but where is the demand coming from in this country over next 2-3 years?

That's the same question you can ask any manufacturer for any contracted work anywhere. I am sure Talgo have done the background work to look at opportunities and upcoming tenders both home and abroad where they can best capitalise on their rolling stock offering across Europe. Clearly that's to the extent where they see justification in expansion.

The need for new built rolling stock in Europe isn't going away any time soon, neither is the number of manufacturers looking for a piece of that very large pie. Being able to accomodate work is a must, which in many cases involves speculation. This is a clear example of that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It is but where is the demand coming from in this country over next 2-3 years? European countries ain't going to like there stock built here unlike us who don't worry about the impact it has on local jobs so its bold investment that they will only make, like Nissan has, because govt subsidises it somehow.

There are a few European countries with no locally based train manufacturers so it's perfectly possible to find markets where price will be more important than parochialism.

 

[Swanny200]

Longannet is perfectly placed as a base for rail manufacturing. An unused site right on the Firth of Forth that the government is looking to invest infrastructurally in long term, as well as nearby Rosyth with accomdation for cargo vessels, and an attractive sailing distance to Scandanavia and North East Europe - it isn't difficult to see what the appeal factor is for Talgo.

Plenty of workforce too, Alloa, Dunfermline and outlying villages like Valleyfield, even Kirkcaldy within reach for workers, Rosyth as you say is within distance although why they couldn't just ship from there with a kind of port seeing as Grangemouth is just across the water and does well enough.

 

[hwl]

Do we know who else is out of the running officially? Talgo are self-announcing this aren't they?

Normally they shouldn't say anything until there is an announcement.

Longannet is perfectly placed as a base for rail manufacturing. An unused site right on the Firth of Forth that the government is looking to invest infrastructurally in long term, as well as nearby Rosyth with accomdation for cargo vessels, and an attractive sailing distance to Scandanavia and North East Europe - it isn't difficult to see what the appeal factor is for Talgo.

And potential standard gauge "test track" which is in very short supply in Spain.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And potential standard gauge "test track" which is in very short supply in Spain.

3402km of high speed standard gauge track though

 

[Mikey C]

Factories need a flow of orders though, you're not going to open a factory in another country because you hope to win orders somewhere in Europe.

And even you win an order somewhere, what happens when the order runs out and there is a gap to the next one? Would Talgo build trains for the Spanish market in Scotland just to keep a factory going?

With Derby and Newport, you can imagine GBR ordering a few Aventras or Civities to keep the plant going, as they are used in this country, but they can't do that for a factory operating on exports only.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Factories need a flow of orders though, you're not going to open a factory in another country because you hope to win orders somewhere in Europe.

And even you win an order somewhere, what happens when the order runs out and there is a gap to the next one? Would Talgo build trains for the Spanish market in Scotland just to keep a factory going?

With Derby and Newport, you can imagine GBR ordering a few Aventras or Civities to keep the plant going, as they are used in this country, but they can't do that for a factory operating on exports only.

Not forgetting Siemens in Goole as well.

Talgo will only build this because they are in receipt of subsidies

 

[Dr Hoo]

Not forgetting Siemens in Goole as well.

Talgo will only build this because they are in receipt of subsidies

Where are these subsidies coming from as a matter of interest?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Where are these subsidies coming from as a matter of interest?

To be clear im postulating that Talgo won't speculatively build a new facility unless they are in receipt of a subsidy.

British government has supported Nissan recently for example but guess it would have to be Scottish Government for Longannet but would want visibility of work i would have thought to commit 10's millions to the project.

 

[Energy]

Talgo have always said that the plan is to export to Europe from this factory, I'd imagine they've picked the UK because of Scottish subsidies in that area and it makes them look more attractive for lucrative UK orders.

 

[Mikey C]

Regional assemblies/governments supporting companies is often a disaster. And it's ridiculously nationalistic to end up with Wales supporting a Welsh train factory (CAF) and Scotland then supporting a rival CAF one. What next, Cornwall getting more autonomy and bringing in a Chinese rail company?

 

[Clansman]

Regional assemblies/governments supporting companies is often a disaster. And it's ridiculously nationalistic to end up with Wales supporting a Welsh train factory (CAF) and Scotland then supporting a rival CAF one. What next, Cornwall getting more autonomy and bringing in a Chinese rail company?

What's bad about that exactly?

 

[HowardGWR]

What's bad about that exactly?

AIUI the USA no longer wants Chinese goods or services so therefore the rest of the world doesn't have to want them either. Something like that.

 

[Mikey C]

What's bad about that exactly?

The Chinese company could have been Japanese, Czech or American, my comment was more about countries and regions of the UK all trying to have their own separate rail assembly factory, when there isn't enough work to support them all

 

[lincolnshire]

It occurs to me that the Talgo site, and indeed the Siemens site (Goole, isn't it ) are both by the sea. Both could build stock for export which would be out of gauge in the UK. Talgo's Spanish factories are around Madrid I think.

Goole is 84 miles inland from the sea and also limited by the size of ship that can get up river to the Port of Goole.

 

[Watershed]

Goole is 84 miles inland from the sea and also limited by the size of ship that can get up river to the Port of Goole.

It's 49 miles from the sea, if you measure along the Humber and Ouse from the 'extension' of the Spurn Point peninsula.

 

[Clansman]

The Chinese company could have been Japanese, Czech or American, my comment was more about countries and regions of the UK all trying to have their own separate rail assembly factory, when there isn't enough work to support them all

I guess you could argue that that's just the nature of the industry. Talgo have expressed an interest because they see enough foresight to be able to get enough orders to work long term.

None of the manufacturers would open multiple factories. So in essence if the nations were to 'support them all' they'd be allowing one region of the UK and one rail manufacturer to monopolise the industry for the sake of diddly squat?

If you're in Scotland, why would you want to pump cash into CAF in Wales when you can approve and support the work of Talgo to come in and create hundreds/thousands of Scottish jobs in an area that's crying out for economic regeneration?

Talgo in Scotland, CAF and Wales, and Hitachi in England is a far better deal for each nation and the UK collectively than just one of these manufacturers existing and the other 2 nations pumping cash into orders for the sake of maintaining it.

Each to their own I guess.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The parochialism in the US is even more extreme. MBTA in Boston decided not to seek federal funding for the new Orange Line trains, so that it could require them to be built in Massachusetts. The tender was won by CNR (now merged into CRRC), which opened a factory in Springfield, Massachusetts.

The new 7000-series trains for the Chicago Transit Authority are being built by CRRC at a new factory in Chicago itself. Bombardier, the losing bidder, sued the CTA, alleging that the tender had been rigged.

 

[Mikey C]

I guess you could argue that that's just the nature of the industry. Talgo have expressed an interest because they see enough foresight to be able to get enough orders to work long term.

None of the manufacturers would open multiple factories. So in essence if the nations were to 'support them all' they'd be allowing one region of the UK and one rail manufacturer to monopolise the industry for the sake of diddly squat?

If you're in Scotland, why would you want to pump cash into CAF in Wales when you can approve and support the work of Talgo to come in and create hundreds/thousands of Scottish jobs in an area that's crying out for economic regeneration?

Talgo in Scotland, CAF and Wales, and Hitachi in England is a far better deal for each nation and the UK collectively than just one of these manufacturers existing and the other 2 nations pumping cash into orders for the sake of maintaining it.

Each to their own I guess.

Following that logic, English operators should be prevented from buying CAF EMUs and made to buy ones made by Bombardier/Alstom or Hitachi in England. London should stop buying buses made by ADL in Scotland or Wrights in N Ireland etc

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Following that logic, English operators should be prevented from buying CAF EMUs and made to buy ones made by Bombardier/Alstom or Hitachi in England. London should stop buying buses made by ADL in Scotland or Wrights in N Ireland etc

That's the direction of travel for those who would break up the Union, as everything descends into national protectionism ("It's Scotland's oil", etc).
It's particularly pointless for rail as the great majority of a modern train's content comes from abroad anyway (EU, Japan, US etc).
It hardly matters where the things are screwed together.

 

[XAM2175]

Following that logic, English operators should be prevented from buying CAF EMUs and made to buy ones made by Bombardier/Alstom or Hitachi in England. London should stop buying buses made by ADL in Scotland or Wrights in N Ireland etc

At no point has anybody mentioned restricting the choice of supplier - that's in your head only. Talgo are saying that they want to proceed with the project despite the fact that they don't have the confirmed order on which it was supposedly predicated, but not because they've been guaranteed others. If you've got a company who appear to be genuinely interested in creating new and reasonably-skilled jobs in a deprived area, why wouldn't you encourage them?

That's the direction of travel for those who would break up the Union, as everything descends into national protectionism ("It's Scotland's oil", etc).
It's particularly pointless for rail as the great majority of a modern train's content comes from abroad anyway (EU, Japan, US etc).
It hardly matters where the things are screwed together.

Oh please. Trying to keep jobs and investment close to home is nothing new here or abroad. Nobody sensible is under any illusion that anything Talgo produce in Fife will be 100% British, let alone Scottish, and trying to turn this into an enemy-Scots-interfering-with-the-proper-order-of-things scenario is churlish.

 

[Clansman]

Following that logic, English operators should be prevented from buying CAF EMUs and made to buy ones made by Bombardier/Alstom or Hitachi in England. London should stop buying buses made by ADL in Scotland or Wrights in N Ireland etc

That's the direction of travel for those who would break up the Union, as everything descends into national protectionism ("It's Scotland's oil", etc).
It's particularly pointless for rail as the great majority of a modern train's content comes from abroad anyway (EU, Japan, US etc).
It hardly matters where the things are screwed together.

National patriotism has nothing to do with what I'm trying to argue, and I'm not sure why you think it's relevant.

The reverse point is just as true for Wales and England as it is for Scotland. Why would the Welsh government want to stop CAF from building a factory in Wales for the sake of jobs in Scotland (Talgo) or England (Hitachi, Bombarier etc)?

When jobs can be created in a city, region, country - it would be more odd for the government of said city, region, country to refuse that just because they feel compelled to order a certain type of rolling stock from a manufacturer 300 miles north, south, east or west. It eliminates competition and it doesn't do anybody local any favours to refuse a top notch facility that would transform an area like Longannet, Rosyth, and Dumfermline in the medium term. Just like what CAF is doing in Newport, or Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe.

If you've got a company who appear to be genuinely interested in creating new and reasonably-skilled jobs in a deprived area, why wouldn't you encourage them?

This 100%

I guess it's because sticking up for local jobs, promoting economic regeneration, and encouraging fair competition and investment is for evil nationalists and we can't be having that