Lancaster Green Ayre Railway Station

[rogerfarnworth]

Lancaster had three railway stations. It now only has one. The article below considers all three stations before focussing on the Midland Station at Green Ayre. ...

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2020/02/28/lancaster-green-ayre-railway-station

Lancaster Green Ayre Station was the erstwhile Midland Railway Station in Lancaster and it provided East-West service through the city to Morecambe in the West and Yorkshire in the East.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Excellent stuff. As a young man I worked in a youth club set in the old Green Ayre engine shed.

 

[randyrippley]

Excellent stuff. As a young man I worked in a youth club set in the old Green Ayre engine shed.

New Planet City
Sadly demolished to make way for Sainsburys

 

[Taunton]

Excellent stuff. As a young man I worked in a youth club set in the old Green Ayre engine shed.

Did I know you?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lancaster-green-ayre.156490/#post-3186102

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lancaster-green-ayre.156490/#post-3187230

 

[JBuchananGB]

On a recent visit to Lancaster I walked along part of the former trackbed of the line which linked Lancaster Castle to Green Ayre. I noticed that a road bridge was standing on the stanchions of the former railway line across the river.

It is interesting that when the line from Wennington to Lancaster closed, the train service from Leeds to Lancaster continued, albeit via Carnforth, and indeed still runs today, although some services start/end at Skipton at one end and at Morecambe at the other end.

 

[Senex]

With hindsight, I wonder if the line to be kept should have been Wennington - Green Ayre - Lancaster Castle rather than the Joint Line to Carnforth.

 

[Dr Hoo]

With hindsight, I wonder if the line to be kept should have been Wennington - Green Ayre - Lancaster Castle rather than the Joint Line to Carnforth.

I suspect that the triangular junction with the Furness line at Carnforth (for freight) was the major reason.

 

[Senex]

Though that connection (Carnforth East Jn to F&M Jn) lasted only till 1989.

 

[randyrippley]

On a recent visit to Lancaster I walked along part of the former trackbed of the line which linked Lancaster Castle to Green Ayre. I noticed that a road bridge was standing on the stanchions of the former railway line across the river.

Its the same bridge (i.e. the third rail bridge) with concrete cantilevers to widen the bridge deck. Not just the stanchions

 

[randyrippley]

With hindsight, I wonder if the line to be kept should have been Wennington - Green Ayre - Lancaster Castle rather than the Joint Line to Carnforth.

That's what BR wanted to do, but the County Council wanted Greyhound Bridge for road use and financial inducements made sure the council got its way

 

[randyrippley]

I suspect that the triangular junction with the Furness line at Carnforth (for freight) was the major reason.

I don't believe that was a consideration. The Furness & Midland was originally slated for closure, then the decision changed

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't believe that was a consideration. The Furness & Midland was originally slated for closure, then the decision changed

Noting that the 'Beeching Report' explicitly showed withdrawal of all passenger services on the more southerly route, listed Green Ayre station for closure (along with the duplicate route to Morecambe via the low level river bridge and Scale Hall) and showed retention of the Carnforth line (albeit with local services withdrawn), do you have a source for your claim?

 

[randyrippley]

Noting that the 'Beeching Report' explicitly showed withdrawal of all passenger services on the more southerly route, listed Green Ayre station for closure (along with the duplicate route to Morecambe via the low level river bridge and Scale Hall) and showed retention of the Carnforth line (albeit with local services withdrawn), do you have a source for your claim?

Nothing I can prove. Its verbal information from city and county councillors who were around at the time.
As I understand it the Beeching Report was subject to political meddling prior to publication

 

[70014IronDuke]

With hindsight, I wonder if the line to be kept should have been Wennington - Green Ayre - Lancaster Castle rather than the Joint Line to Carnforth.

Why?
Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see both routes kept.
But I'd have liked to see Carnforth WCML platforms also kept. Once they had gone, the case for keeping the Midland route into Lancaster Green Ayre gets stronger, IMHO. But I suspect the argument at the time stressed the possibility of changing at Carnforth for servicies north.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I bunked Green Ayre shed once (their 'Jinties' were elusive). It had a very unusual track layout; the arrival/departure line ran past the shed onto a turntable. All access to the shed was by means of the 'table, which was outside the shed, and locos reversed direction on the table (obviously, after it had been turned to the required road) which was at the end of the site.
It had the major flaw that, if the table broke down, engines were trapped inside and there was also little space to stable arriving engines. Of course, the first snag also applies to roundhouses, which the Midland seemed to favour.
It's not clear whether the building still exists - does anyone know? Curiously, a little further North at Carnforth both the Midland Railway roundhouse building and the LMS shed (built to replace the previous 3 sheds including the Midland one) still survive.

 

[Senex]

Why?
Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see both routes kept.
But I'd have liked to see Carnforth WCML platforms also kept. Once they had gone, the case for keeping the Midland route into Lancaster Green Ayre gets stronger, IMHO. But I suspect the argument at the time stressed the possibility of changing at Carnforth for servicies north.

Though Carnforth never had the choice of reasonably fast WCML services offered at Lancaster, so wan't really such a good place to change, I'd have thought.

 

[randyrippley]

I bunked Green Ayre shed once (their 'Jinties' were elusive). It had a very unusual track layout; the arrival/departure line ran past the shed onto a turntable. All access to the shed was by means of the 'table, which was outside the shed, and locos reversed direction on the table (obviously, after it had been turned to the required road) which was at the end of the site.
It had the major flaw that, if the table broke down, engines were trapped inside and there was also little space to stable arriving engines. Of course, the first snag also applies to roundhouses, which the Midland seemed to favour.
It's not clear whether the building still exists - does anyone know? Curiously, a little further North at Carnforth both the Midland Railway roundhouse building and the LMS shed (built to replace the previous 3 sheds including the Midland one) still survive.

Part of the shed walls are supposedly retained in the external walls of Sainsburys, but I've never managed to identify where. It all looks like new build to me (though with areas of recycled stone)

 

[Merle Haggard]

Part of the shed walls are supposedly retained in the external walls of Sainsburys, but I've never managed to identify where. It all looks like new build to me (though with areas of recycled stone)

Thank you for that information.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Though Carnforth never had the choice of reasonably fast WCML services offered at Lancaster, so wan't really such a good place to change, I'd have thought.

Well, OK, but then you had to faff around getting up to Castle from Green Ayre if you took the southern route. (I suppose you could have gone via Clapham, Kirkby Lonsdale and Tebay before the closure of that route. Not sure when that was.)

Whatever, I'm still intrigued as to why you suggest keeping the Green Ayre line might have been the better option.

 

[Senex]

Well, OK, but then you had to faff around getting up to Castle from Green Ayre if you took the southern route. (I suppose you could have gone via Clapham, Kirkby Lonsdale and Tebay before the closure of that route. Not sure when that was.)

Whatever, I'm still intrigued as to why you suggest keeping the Green Ayre line might have been the better option.

What about the regular electric trains between Green Ayre and Castle? And what I was thinking about was keeping Wennington to Castle, plus (as was done) the Castle to Morecambe line, thus providing a simple change just at Castle. (The Ingleton route would have been nice, but what long-distance trains were ever going to stop at Low Gill or Tebay?)

 

[70014IronDuke]

What about the regular electric trains between Green Ayre and Castle? And what I was thinking about was keeping Wennington to Castle, plus (as was done) the Castle to Morecambe line, thus providing a simple change just at Castle. (The Ingleton route would have been nice, but what long-distance trains were ever going to stop at Low Gill or Tebay?)

Was there a direct service from Wennington to Castle? I didn't know there was a link. I thought you had to go into Green Ayre and reverse, or change trains.
If so, that's kind of different, of course. It would, presumably, have been quite quite a lot faster to Lancaster to boot. It does make you wonder why they chose the northern link, I agree.

That Lune Valley, through Claughton, is a lovely, relatively unknown area. I only discovered it for myself around 2005 when I had the chance to drive that way.

 

[30907]

Was there a direct service from Wennington to Castle? I didn't know there was a link. I thought you had to go into Green Ayre and reverse, or change trains.

The junction at Green Ayre faced Wennington, but AFAIK there were no through services from Castle.
It would have been perfectly possible to run a service (Leeds-)Wennington-Castle P5-Bare Lane-Morecambe, which of course wouldn't have needed the river bridge.
I, too, had always assumed that the Carnforth route back in the 60s still carried significant freight, which made retaining it sensible.

 

[randyrippley]

The junction at Green Ayre faced Wennington, but AFAIK there were no through services from Castle.
It would have been perfectly possible to run a service (Leeds-)Wennington-Castle P5-Bare Lane-Morecambe, which of course wouldn't have needed the river bridge.
I, too, had always assumed that the Carnforth route back in the 60s still carried significant freight, which made retaining it sensible.

Doing that would have caused logistical problems with the power supply. The catenary was powered from the power station at Heysham Harbour, closing Green Ayre - Morecambe would have broken the feed. So no power for Green Ayre - Castle meaning you'd have to bank anything using it. Too much hassle. Also from memory platform 5 was pretty short - 3/4 coaches only and was the only one accessible from the link

 

[30907]

Doing that would have caused logistical problems with the power supply. The catenary was powered from the power station at Heysham Harbour, closing Green Ayre - Morecambe would have broken the feed. So no power for Green Ayre - Castle meaning you'd have to bank anything using it. Too much hassle. Also from memory platform 5 was pretty short - 3/4 coaches only and was the only one accessible from the link

I was assuming DMUs as it was post Beeching and referring to the present loop P5.

 

[randyrippley]

I was assuming DMUs as it was post Beeching and referring to the present loop P5.

Actually I should have said 6 not 5.
I don't think 5 had direct access to the curve. Even for DMU the gradient would be interesting

 

[30907]

Actually I should have said 6 not 5.
I don't think 5 had direct access to the curve. Even for DMU the gradient would be interesting

TBH I'd forgotten about 6, it has been disused since I first visited Castle long after the Green Ayre line had gone. Anyway, apparently both 5 and 6 had access:
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M633.gif
I've not been able to check out the gradient, but it's not one of those I remember from lists of "steepest railway gradients" like Mortehoe and Exeter and Lickey...

 

[Senex]

Actually I should have said 6 not 5.
I don't think 5 had direct access to the curve. Even for DMU the gradient would be interesting

The gradient was 1:78 — DMUs regularly work steeper than that, so they shouldn't have had any problems.

 

[Bovverboy]

The junction at Green Ayre faced Wennington, but AFAIK there were no through services from Castle.
It would have been perfectly possible to run a service (Leeds-)Wennington-Castle P5-Bare Lane-Morecambe, which of course wouldn't have needed the river bridge.
I, too, had always assumed that the Carnforth route back in the 60s still carried significant freight, which made retaining it sensible.

Doing that would have caused logistical problems with the power supply. The catenary was powered from the power station at Heysham Harbour, closing Green Ayre - Morecambe would have broken the feed. So no power for Green Ayre - Castle meaning you'd have to bank anything using it. Too much hassle. Also from memory platform 5 was pretty short - 3/4 coaches only and was the only one accessible from the link

If there were to be no electrics to Morecambe, you wouldn't need a power supply Green Ayre - Castle.
And Heysham Power Station didn't exist when the LM&H electrics were running.

 

[30907]

The gradient was 1:78 — DMUs regularly work steeper than that, so they shouldn't have had any problems.

Thanks. Might have been 1/2min quicker in an EMU.
BTW didn't they run a steam push-pull while the line was re-electrified?

 

[Bovverboy]

Thanks. Might have been 1/2min quicker in an EMU.
BTW didn't they run a steam push-pull while the line was re-electrified?

Yes they did - using Stanier 0-4-4 tanks.