Last minute platform changes, East Croydon

[al78]

Yesterday evening I was travelling from Farringdon to Horsham changing to a fast train at East Croydon. I was initially on the delayed 16:49 to Horsham (left Farringdon at 16:54) which arrived at platform 3 or 4 (can't remember which). The Bognor train I was aiming for was scheduled to arrive at platform 2 so I crossed over via the footbridge and it was due to arrive at 17:23. At 17:22 the boards showed a northbound train scheduled to arrive at platform 2 and shortly after an announcement was made that the 17:23 Bognor train would now depart from platform 3. Cue an estimated 100+ people dashing up and down the stairs to board it (I've never seen Horshamites move so fast before). Fortunately we all made it.

This is not the first time this has happened and it has coincided with the Bognor train, which always used to stop at platform 3, now stopping most of the time at platform 2. Were there developing problems on the network yesterday afternoon and evening? I cannot think it is desirable to have last minute platform alterations like that which require going up/down stairs and over a bridge quickly at a busy station unless it is necessary.

 

[Oxfordblues]

When I worked at Preston Powerbox the signallers often replatformed trains at short notice without reference to passengers having to rush across the bridge or down the subway. I could usually predict the platform change in good time but they usually waited until the trains were entering the station before telling the announcer to broadcast the change. This was the 1970s, so before Opentraintimes and Traksy!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yesterday evening I was travelling from Farringdon to Horsham changing to a fast train at East Croydon. I was initially on the delayed 16:49 to Horsham (left Farringdon at 16:54) which arrived at platform 3 or 4 (can't remember which). The Bognor train I was aiming for was scheduled to arrive at platform 2 so I crossed over via the footbridge and it was due to arrive at 17:23. At 17:22 the boards showed a northbound train scheduled to arrive at platform 2 and shortly after an announcement was made that the 17:23 Bognor train would now depart from platform 3. Cue an estimated 100+ people dashing up and down the stairs to board it (I've never seen Horshamites move so fast before). Fortunately we all made it.

This is not the first time this has happened and it has coincided with the Bognor train, which always used to stop at platform 3, now stopping most of the time at platform 2. Were there developing problems on the network yesterday afternoon and evening? I cannot think it is desirable to have last minute platform alterations like that which require going up/down stairs and over a bridge quickly at a busy station unless it is necessary.

Have to say as a regular user of E.Croydon they very really replatform from 3 to 2 or vice versa and you get held outside waiting your booked platform but if the box are advised of a delay to a train in the platform they may them replatform. Its is however quite regular replatform 6 to 5 and v.v but thats cross platform

 

[bicbasher]

If I recall the platform arrangement at East Croydon is.

Plat 1: Fast Victoria Southern from the south coast and GX passing through.
Plat 2: Northbound TL.
Plat 3: Fast TL and Southern Southbound and GX passing through.
Plat 4: Southern to London Bridge, TL stoppers from Three Bridges via Redhill, Victoria fasts from Reigate and East Grinstead.
Plat 5: Southern terminators - London Bridge via Selhurst and Watford Junction. Southern through services to Reigate, also used for delayed services.
Plat 6: Southern services to Caterham/Tattenham Corner, East Grinstead, Uckfield and TL stoppers to Three Bridges via Redhill along with Horsham services.

 

[OxtedL]

All 3 of the evening peak southbound Portsmouth fasts scheduled to use platform 2 (and both of the non-stop GatEx) have instead used platform 3 both yesterday and today, along with both of the GatEx non-stopping trains, so maybe there is some kind of issue.
Or potentially just signaller preference.

In the situation where the platform change is known about in advance then the information screens can and should be updated well ahead of the train's arrival, but this wouldn't be by the signaller directly.

There used to be way more southbound traffic through platform 2 but looks like there's fewer than 10 trains a day in the current timetable.

 

[izvor]

I used to use East Croydon regularly until recently, often late at night, and this was a common occurrence. Last minute could be anything from 2 minutes notice to 30 seconds or less - when you could see your train pulling in on the far side of the station as the announcement was made. Sometimes the platform staff would radio across to their colleagues on the "new" platform (usually 3) to hold the train but not always.

On one occasion there was even a double last minute change - from 5/6 to 3/2 if I remember, and then, just as everyone was scurrying up the ramp, back to 5/6 again. Of course most of them did not hear the second announcement so missed it completely. On another I happened to be chatting to the driver who was taking over my train when he said "Looks like it's platform 6", as the train was pulling in! Ok this time it was only a 5 to 6 cross-platform but (a) there were no announcements at all and (b) it was the last train of the night to several stations including Redhill.

So, to continue the rant, when the new P0 was announced as the replacement up platfrom for P1 at Redhill I was dreading the same happening here, and sure enough my fears were well founded. P1 to P2 is simple cross-platform; P0 to/from P2 is a long trek via a single subway: at a guess, from the up end of one to the other is over 500m, or a third of a mile. (A first class Thameslink passenger would be waiting at the up end and have to do the full hike). No one can do this in a minute or less, and it is shameful that NR expects its passengers to do so. The sight of elderly and mobility impaired passengers desperately (and unsafely) rushing to catch the train they were expecting to board in good time, is distressing.

My understanding is that these last-minute platform switches are done to save NR from penalty fines for delays which would be attributable to them. Can an insider confirm this? Can anyone seriously justify this practice?

Of course platform changes have to take place and I have experienced them at many other stations, but not with such short notice as these two. Any other contributions? [/rant!]

 

[SECR263]

A similar problem frequently happens with the LBG fasts at NWD which conflict with the VIC stoppers from West Croy for use of Plat 1 which they both use but not at the same time. The LBG fast are often diverted to Plat 3 which is Ok for most but for a pram is not much fun as 2 stair cases to use at short notice. It is a frequent change not always quickly picked by the auto announce. The good staff at NWD do try to help carry stuff when poss and do verbal announcements as not all pass pick up the auto announcements. Hopefully this situation will be picked up by somebody in the rail companies for a TT change.

 

[Sunset route]

since COVID we don’t have a rush period and the service is basically the same pattern all day but for some reason the timetable planners at both East Croydon and Gatwick Airport have reversed some of the platforms in what would of been the old rush period. This often gets overlooked when you’ve been putting the same trains in the same platforms every half hour for most of a 12hr shift. Now if the trains were using different platforms to squeeze in extra trains from London Bridge like we used to then that would explain the move away from a standard platforming. We even have a 1Fxx to Eastbourne that uses platform 2 instead of platform 3 on Thursdays only with nothing scheduled to clash on that day, that train is almost guaranteed to end up on platform 3 in error 99% of the time.

 

[Pompey00]

It is such a pain when the platform changes from one to the other in short notice with little time to cross over and get it for some people it’s possible where if your visually impaired , disabled, with luggage , electric scooter , etc more of a obstacle and will miss it unless the guard and driver is nice enough to hold the train then happy days but unfortunately due to circumstances like signal/tracks issue , late running trains and freight trains etc means platform changes are the only way to keep the train on time as much as they can even if they have to catch up on the way. Woking for example is a bad one for late minute sudden platform changes what affects people’s days.

 

[Minstral25]

I used to use East Croydon regularly until recently, often late at night, and this was a common occurrence. Last minute could be anything from 2 minutes notice to 30 seconds or less - when you could see your train pulling in on the far side of the station as the announcement was made. Sometimes the platform staff would radio across to their colleagues on the "new" platform (usually 3) to hold the train but not always.

On one occasion there was even a double last minute change - from 5/6 to 3/2 if I remember, and then, just as everyone was scurrying up the ramp, back to 5/6 again. Of course most of them did not hear the second announcement so missed it completely. On another I happened to be chatting to the driver who was taking over my train when he said "Looks like it's platform 6", as the train was pulling in! Ok this time it was only a 5 to 6 cross-platform but (a) there were no announcements at all and (b) it was the last train of the night to several stations including Redhill.

So, to continue the rant, when the new P0 was announced as the replacement up platfrom for P1 at Redhill I was dreading the same happening here, and sure enough my fears were well founded. P1 to P2 is simple cross-platform; P0 to/from P2 is a long trek via a single subway: at a guess, from the up end of one to the other is over 500m, or a third of a mile. (A first class Thameslink passenger would be waiting at the up end and have to do the full hike). No one can do this in a minute or less, and it is shameful that NR expects its passengers to do so. The sight of elderly and mobility impaired passengers desperately (and unsafely) rushing to catch the train they were expecting to board in good time, is distressing.

My understanding is that these last-minute platform switches are done to save NR from penalty fines for delays which would be attributable to them. Can an insider confirm this? Can anyone seriously justify this practice?

Of course platform changes have to take place and I have experienced them at many other stations, but not with such short notice as these two. Any other contributions? [/rant!]

100% this - both of these have made me angry over the years and still am.

Trying to swap platform groups at East Croydon since the Subway was replaced is horrendous (the open stairs when wet are verging on dangerous especially if you are older or infirm) and the Redhill route (my local line) seems to have more than its fair share of platform swaps between platform groups at East Croydon. It has got better since Horsham via Redhill trains have been pathed through P6.

Redhill platform 0 has been a disaster for passengers since day 1, such bad planning as there is more than enough room to extend platform 1 which would not have needed to swap of through route to platform 0. It's made especially bad because of the sheer length of the new trains and the single subway at Redhill, plus use of far ends of platforms for shorter trains (Reigate and Tonbridge), well away from the subway.

 

[Jan Mayen]

An up Gatwick Express is going through Platform 2. Slowly. I wonder why?

Edit: Now i know why!
Signalling problems at London Victoria.
Gatwick Express terminated in platform 2, passengers advised to go to platform 1 (cross platform) for the 0858 Southern service to London Victoria.
Which in turn, was then announced as being diverted to London Bridge!

 

[Deepgreen]

I used to use East Croydon regularly until recently, often late at night, and this was a common occurrence. Last minute could be anything from 2 minutes notice to 30 seconds or less - when you could see your train pulling in on the far side of the station as the announcement was made. Sometimes the platform staff would radio across to their colleagues on the "new" platform (usually 3) to hold the train but not always.

On one occasion there was even a double last minute change - from 5/6 to 3/2 if I remember, and then, just as everyone was scurrying up the ramp, back to 5/6 again. Of course most of them did not hear the second announcement so missed it completely. On another I happened to be chatting to the driver who was taking over my train when he said "Looks like it's platform 6", as the train was pulling in! Ok this time it was only a 5 to 6 cross-platform but (a) there were no announcements at all and (b) it was the last train of the night to several stations including Redhill.

So, to continue the rant, when the new P0 was announced as the replacement up platfrom for P1 at Redhill I was dreading the same happening here, and sure enough my fears were well founded. P1 to P2 is simple cross-platform; P0 to/from P2 is a long trek via a single subway: at a guess, from the up end of one to the other is over 500m, or a third of a mile. (A first class Thameslink passenger would be waiting at the up end and have to do the full hike). No one can do this in a minute or less, and it is shameful that NR expects its passengers to do so. The sight of elderly and mobility impaired passengers desperately (and unsafely) rushing to catch the train they were expecting to board in good time, is distressing.

My understanding is that these last-minute platform switches are done to save NR from penalty fines for delays which would be attributable to them. Can an insider confirm this? Can anyone seriously justify this practice?

Of course platform changes have to take place and I have experienced them at many other stations, but not with such short notice as these two. Any other contributions? [/rant!]

Redhill p0 is a case of how NOT to design a project. The whole thing was, and remains, botched and even small details such as a couple of helpful signs are seemingly beyond the capabilities of anyone involved to put right. Exactly what is wrong with the fragmented privatised railway, in microcosm.

Regarding East Croydon, last-minute platform changes often involve people rushing over the 'new' footbridge, whch is so woefully unfit for purpose that in wet weather it becomes a serious slip risk, as it was thought sensible not to keep the rain off the stairs as part of the 'design'!

 

[JonathanH]

Redhill p0 is a case of how NOT to design a project. The whole thing was, and remains, botched and even small details such as a couple of helpful signs are seemingly beyond the capabilities of anyone involved to put right. Exactly what is wrong with the fragmented privatised railway, in microcosm.

A lack of money to do anything with the paintwork at the southern end clearly didn't help. It did at least deliver an additional platform. Are you suggesting that something could have been done within the amount spent that delivered a better outcome, or would a better outcome have required more spending?

In the case of both East Croydon and Redhill it can be apparent when a train is going to use a different platform before it is actually announced - eg signals being set for the northbound departure. It just happens that station staff have other responsibilities so they can't always monitor and inform passengers as to what is happening.

 

[Watershed]

In the case of both East Croydon and Redhill it can be apparent when a train is going to use a different platform before it is actually announced - eg signals being set for the northbound departure.

Apparent to those in the know, but most people wouldn't have a clue about such things - and quite reasonably would expect their train to depart from the advertised platform unless informed otherwise.

 

[JonathanH]

Apparent to those in the know, but most people wouldn't have a clue about such things - and quite reasonably would expect their train to depart from the advertised platform unless informed otherwise.

My point was that station staff should be among those 'in the know', not the general public, to give the best possible early warning to passengers.

 

[al78]

Redhill p0 is a case of how NOT to design a project. The whole thing was, and remains, botched and even small details such as a couple of helpful signs are seemingly beyond the capabilities of anyone involved to put right. Exactly what is wrong with the fragmented privatised railway, in microcosm.

Regarding East Croydon, last-minute platform changes often involve people rushing over the 'new' footbridge, whch is so woefully unfit for purpose that in wet weather it becomes a serious slip risk, as it was thought sensible not to keep the rain off the stairs as part of the 'design'!

I wasn't aware there was a new footbridge at East Croydon. I usually get the 16:49 Horsham bound service from Farringdon which stops at P6, I cross to P3 and get on the Bognor/Portsmouth Hbr fast service to Horsham. I initially used the ramps to change platforms and they were always very crowded so I switched to using the stair based crossing at the other end of the platform. Is there a third way to cross platforms or is my current method the new footbridge?

 

[Somewhere]

I wasn't aware there was a new footbridge at East Croydon. I usually get the 16:49 Horsham bound service from Farringdon which stops at P6, I cross to P3 and get on the Bognor/Portsmouth Hbr fast service to Horsham. I initially used the ramps to change platforms and they were always very crowded so I switched to using the stair based crossing at the other end of the platform. Is there a third way to cross platforms or is my current method the new footbridge?

That is the new footbridge. It replaced the subway

 

[izvor]

Redhill platform 0 has been a disaster for passengers since day 1, such bad planning as there is more than enough room to extend platform 1 which would not have needed to swap of through route to platform 0. It's made especially bad because of the sheer length of the new trains and the single subway at Redhill, plus use of far ends of platforms for shorter trains (Reigate and Tonbridge), well away from the subway.

Totally agree. Classic case of putting operational efficiency over passenger experience. A snip at £40m plus!

A lack of money to do anything with the paintwork at the southern end clearly didn't help. It did at least deliver an additional platform. Are you suggesting that something could have been done within the amount spent that delivered a better outcome, or would a better outcome have required more spending?

I'm no railway expert but I would have thought that a bay platform on the down side, down end would obviate the ridiculous requirement for Tonbridge branch trains to cross the entire track layout to terminate in P0/1/2. There's space, it would free up paths on the through lines, and be much, much cheaper too.

My point was that station staff should be among those 'in the know', not the general public, to give the best possible early warning to passengers.

At East Croydon I learnt to watch the departure boards for 2 trains shown as departing at the same time from the same platform. Surprisingly common! I would then position myself at the bottom of the ramp to get ready for a sprint. The platform staff were usually pretty prompt at announcing any last-minute change (compared to it appearing on the board) which suggests to me that the blame lies mostly with NR and its signalling and/or communication.

 

[Javelin_55]

My understanding is that these last-minute platform switches are done to save NR from penalty fines for delays which would be attributable to them. Can an insider confirm this? Can anyone seriously justify this practice?

Not sure I understand how NR causing a delay by switching platforms will save them from the attributed delay? If that's their motivation, they're far far more likely to leave the train in it's booked platform so that any delays caused at the station will be a result of the train's prior lateness.

 

[Sunset route]

Totally agree. Classic case of putting operational efficiency over passenger experience. A snip at £40m plus!

Actually the Ops department at the time including the ops managers, local ops managers, H&S reps, local staff reps all protested at the proposed new layout and how bad it will be to operate from both the public and signallers point of view, all objections were overruled.

We can’t see no logical reason why even now that platform can’t get shortened into an 8 car south facing bay and platform 1 exits through 1910 points instead, thus keeping the existing northbound oversize freight run round facility but adding a new southbound oversize facility would be a nice touch as well, as it can’t happen with the current new signalling.

 

[johncrossley]

There needs to be a rule that no train is allowed to leave within 5 minutes of a platform change, unless it is cross platform.

 

[Watershed]

Not sure I understand how NR causing a delay by switching platforms will save them from the attributed delay? If that's their motivation, they're far far more likely to leave the train in it's booked platform so that any delays caused at the station will be a result of the train's prior lateness.

There is nothing in the rules that forces the train to be held until all intending passengers have made it to the platform. So if the train leaves on time because of a platform change, it counts as on time even if it's completely empty.

It's definitely a bit of an oversight in the rules.

 

[Deepgreen]

A lack of money to do anything with the paintwork at the southern end clearly didn't help. It did at least deliver an additional platform. Are you suggesting that something could have been done within the amount spent that delivered a better outcome, or would a better outcome have required more spending?

In the case of both East Croydon and Redhill it can be apparent when a train is going to use a different platform before it is actually announced - eg signals being set for the northbound departure. It just happens that station staff have other responsibilities so they can't always monitor and inform passengers as to what is happening.

I assume you mean pointwork! Yes, the ideal solution was said to be unaffordable but my gripe has always been about the important details, such as getting GWR trains to stop by the p0 stairs, not nearly halfway down the 12 car platform! NR, GWR and Southern have all passed the buck regarding providing the necessary 2/3car stop sign (£20?), so passengers (sometimes with late notice platform changes) have to walk along the platform for no reason (and, no, there is no signalling reason why trains couldn't stop by the stairs for most passenger benefit, as trains heading south already draw right up to the very south end of p0 anyway). NR have told me that the "design team for p0 has been disbanded" so nothing can be done, which is obviously nonsense! All the details like this would have made the half-baked p0 project at least as passenger-friendly as possible, but no; these details were dismissed or overlooked.

Yes, those of us who know enough to look out for these things can spot platform changes but most passengers don't check signal aspects (which are sometimes not visible from the platform they are on anyway) to know where to go for their trains!

 

[izvor]

Not sure I understand how NR causing a delay by switching platforms will save them from the attributed delay? If that's their motivation, they're far far more likely to leave the train in it's booked platform so that any delays caused at the station will be a result of the train's prior lateness.

I actually intended the opposite meaning: an on-time train is last-minute diverted to another platform to avoid delay and hence the penalties. And to hell with the passengers.

Actually the Ops department at the time including the ops managers, local ops managers, H&S reps, local staff reps all protested at the proposed new layout and how bad it will be to operate from both the public and signallers point of view, all objections were overruled.

Now that is interesting, especially in view of the recent election, and the intended return to state ownership. Am I right in suddenly hearing siren calls for a return to the "engineering-led" railway? Wouldn't that lead to more disasters like Redhill P0, not fewer?

NR, GWR and Southern have all passed the buck regarding providing the necessary 2/3car stop sign (£20?), so passengers (sometimes with late notice platform changes) have to walk along the platform for no reason (and, no, there is no signalling reason why trains couldn't stop by the stairs for most passenger benefit, as trains heading south already draw right up to the very south end of p0 anyway). NR have told me that the "design team for p0 has been disbanded" so nothing can be done, which is obviously nonsense! All the details like this would have made the half-baked p0 project at least as passenger-friendly as possible, but no; these details were dismissed or overlooked.

Again, very interesting, and a pretty appalling reflection on NR project management. I would suggest that you don't even need £20 for a car stop sign: at Tonbridge they cope quite well with a baton held up by a dispatcher for the driver approaching P1, from either direction, if he is to pull up anywhere other than the appropriate car-stop sign. And going back a few decades, at Redhill the platform staff would hold up the appropriate number of fingers to the drivers on the Reading-Tonbridges to pull up at the relevant car stop sign. (If it was 2 they were probably given the same sign back but it seemed to work ok, as long as it wasn't 12!)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is nothing in the rules that forces the train to be held until all intending passengers have made it to the platform. So if the train leaves on time because of a platform change, it counts as on time even if it's completely empty.

It's definitely a bit of an oversight in the rules.

You don't say! It seems almost as if, operationally, 'right time departures' are paramount to just about everything else. Tail wagging dog, and all that. And late platform changes at East Croydon are very definitely nothing new.

 

[Minstral25]

Redhill p0 is a case of how NOT to design a project. The whole thing was, and remains, botched and even small details such as a couple of helpful signs are seemingly beyond the capabilities of anyone involved to put right. Exactly what is wrong with the fragmented privatised railway, in microcosm.

A lack of money to do anything with the point work at the southern end clearly didn't help. It did at least deliver an additional platform. Are you suggesting that something could have been done within the amount spent that delivered a better outcome, or would a better outcome have required more spending?

It is a botch - Local Rail users spent many hours with Network Rail trying to get them to change the plans - it was obviously going to be a disaster. The point work at the South of the station is (5 years later) now needing replacement which is set for Xmas 2025 - why they couldn't put both together and make a joined up station is anyone's guess.

We were told their plan hard to stay as they had the funds for it, regardless of Passenger needs

I'm no railway expert but I would have thought that a bay platform on the down side, down end would obviate the ridiculous requirement for Tonbridge branch trains to cross the entire track layout to terminate in P0/1/2. There's space, it would free up paths on the through lines, and be much, much cheaper too.

Yes, we have suggested a P4 several times. Ears still not listening

Actually the Ops department at the time including the ops managers, local ops managers, H&S reps, local staff reps all protested at the proposed new layout and how bad it will be to operate from both the public and signallers point of view, all objections were overruled.

We can’t see no logical reason why even now that platform can’t get shortened into an 8 car south facing bay and platform 1 exits through 1910 points instead, thus keeping the existing northbound oversize freight run round facility but adding a new southbound oversize facility would be a nice touch as well, as it can’t happen with the current new signalling.

Didn't realise we had allies when we were campaigning to stop the work. Thank you for trying.

Totally agree about reducing P0 to 8 coaches and using space created to extend P1 - in fact exactly what Rail Users suggested in 2015. Suspect we need to try again for Dec 25 works.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

since COVID we don’t have a rush period and the service is basically the same pattern all day but for some reason the timetable planners at both East Croydon and Gatwick Airport have reversed some of the platforms in what would of been the old rush period. This often gets overlooked when you’ve been putting the same trains in the same platforms every half hour for most of a 12hr shift. Now if the trains were using different platforms to squeeze in extra trains from London Bridge like we used to then that would explain the move away from a standard platforming. We even have a 1Fxx to Eastbourne that uses platform 2 instead of platform 3 on Thursdays only with nothing scheduled to clash on that day, that train is almost guaranteed to end up on platform 3 in error 99% of the time.

That's because there is a NR test train 1Q76 ThO which needs to run through East Croydon Platform 3 as its recording the track in that section. So that's why the 1Fxx is in Platform 2.

 

[Sunset route]

That's because there is a NR test train 1Q76 ThO which needs to run through East Croydon Platform 3 as its recording the track in that section. So that's why the 1Fxx is in Platform 2.

What test train we’ve never seen it run once yet. It must be a very rarely used protective path then!!!!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

What test train we’ve never seen it run once yet. It must be a very rarely used protective path then!!!!

If it does run it would only run once every 4 weeks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I assume you mean pointwork! Yes, the ideal solution was said to be unaffordable but my gripe has always been about the important details, such as getting GWR trains to stop by the p0 stairs, not nearly halfway down the 12 car platform! NR, GWR and Southern have all passed the buck regarding providing the necessary 2/3car stop sign (£20?), so passengers (sometimes with late notice platform changes) have to walk along the platform for no reason (and, no, there is no signalling reason why trains couldn't stop by the stairs for most passenger benefit, as trains heading south already draw right up to the very south end of p0 anyway). NR have told me that the "design team for p0 has been disbanded" so nothing can be done, which is obviously nonsense! All the details like this would have made the half-baked p0 project at least as passenger-friendly as possible, but no; these details were dismissed or overlooked.

Yes, those of us who know enough to look out for these things can spot platform changes but most passengers don't check signal aspects (which are sometimes not visible from the platform they are on anyway) to know where to go for their trains!

It was £80m for P0 partly because NR had to buy the siding off EWS and they wanted top dollar. GWR seem erratic where they stop on P0 some drivers pull up short of the car marker others don't.

Oh and that £20 sign will cost about 100X as it will need a sighting committee and a whole load bureaucracy to install it. Mind you i was told it confusing for drivers having lots of car markers on P0.

Ultimately its just another example of the industry very clearly NOT putting the passenger first.