Late from the depot

[woodmally]

So the Sheffield to Plymouth train was late today because..... It was late leaving the depot. How does this happen? Late due to signals etc I get but when the train is in the depot?

 

[zebedee104]

Crew late. Overnight maintenance finishing late. There's plenty of possible reasons.

 

[DarloRich]

Have you ever been late away from your home "depot" in the morning for work? What causes that? Car breakdown? Flat batteries on the alarm? Power cut? Why would a train and its driver be any different?

 

[brompton rail]

It was 15 late from Leeds but left Neville Hill on time and lost 30 minutes at Marsh Lane. Signalling problems at Wakefield (lightning strike) impacted on journey south of Leeds and greatly increased the delays so departure from Sheffield was about 40 late.

 

[woodmally]

Have you ever been late away from your home "depot" in the morning for work? What causes that? Car breakdown? Flat batteries on the alarm? Power cut? Why would a train and its driver be any different?

True but all of these things are other reasons to be late. Why do they not say late due to train fault or late due to congestion (the later of which was the reason I got from Cross Country). I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

 

[aleggatta]

True but all of these things are other reasons to be late. Why do they not say late due to train fault or late due to congestion (the later of which was the reason I got from Cross Country). I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

A train being late from the depot usually implies that its a fleet/depot infrastructure issue, not a train crew related issue. The actual issue could be anything from a train prep not completed on time, a fault requiring rectification, a signalling issue at the depot, a unit being late from an exam or even an administrative error that removed a service from that depots 'departure' list (when this happens, the first its known about is normally the driver turning up for a diagram that doesn't exist according to the depot). To give complete transparency on these depot issues might only be understood by a minority and more than likely would just arm the complainers with something else to complain about. Also, the relevant control might not know the actual reason until after an investigation has been carried out by the depot, which could be hours after the service has completed its diagram.

 

[pdeaves]

Further to aleggata's comment, in instances where the train maintainer is not the TOC (e.g. the various IET and Voyager fleets), unless the maintainer is proactive and owns up beforehand (doesn't always happen...) all the TOC will know is that the train didn't leave the depot on time. Everything that happens on depot is nothing to do with the TOC.

 

[yorkie]

True but all of these things are other reasons to be late. Why do they not say late due to train fault or late due to congestion (the later of which was the reason I got from Cross Country). I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

That could lead to some very convoluted announcements.

"This train was late because it was late from the depot which was because maintenance of the train occurred later than originally planned due to other trains arriving late at the depot; the first train that was late at the depot was delayed due to overheard wire problems, the second train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a signal failure, and the third train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a delay on a previous journey which was delayed due to congestion due to a failed train earlier in the day; these three trains all arriving late to the depot resulted in this train being released from the depot later than scheduled. We apologise on behalf of all the relevant third parties who caused these knock-on delays"​

 

[aleggatta]

That could lead to some very convoluted announcements.

"This train was late because it was late from the depot which was because maintenance of the train occurred later than originally planned due to other trains arriving late at the depot; the first train that was late at the depot was delayed due to overheard wire problems, the second train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a signal failure, and the third train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a delay on a previous journey which was delayed due to congestion due to a failed train earlier in the day; these three trains all arriving late to the depot resulted in this train being released from the depot later than scheduled. We apologise on behalf of all the relevant third parties who caused these knock-on delays"​

where's the Like button?

 

[DarloRich]

True but all of these things are other reasons to be late. Why do they not say late due to train fault or late due to congestion (the later of which was the reason I got from Cross Country). I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

they might not know why the train is late form the depot at that precise moment

"This train was late because it was late from the depot which was because maintenance of the train occurred later than originally planned due to other trains arriving late at the depot; the first train that was late at the depot was delayed due to overheard wire problems, the second train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a signal failure, and the third train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a delay on a previous journey which was delayed due to congestion due to a failed train earlier in the day; these three trains all arriving late to the depot resulted in this train being released from the depot later than scheduled. We apologise on behalf of all the relevant third parties who caused these knock-on delays"

the 4th train late of the depot was delayed by a cause under investigation

 

[evoluzione]

Taxis taking drivers to depot not turning up at booked time or failing to show at all can be another reason for Trains Late from depot.

 

[aleggatta]

Taxis taking drivers to depot not turning up at booked time or failing to show at all can be another reason for Trains Late from depot.

normally this would be quoted as late train crew, as the depot is usually pretty quick to divert blame from themselves when they can.

 

[Darandio]

I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

I had a feeling it was another one of these threads before I read down as far as this post. If they gave an announcement specifically telling you that 'Bob the driver was late to the depot this morning because a power cut due to the storms last night knocked out his alarm', how would that help you in any way?

 

[dk1]

normally this would be quoted as late train crew, as the depot is usually pretty quick to divert blame from themselves when they can.

& any driver manager worth his/her weight will bat the delay straight back at them.

 

[aleggatta]

& any driver manager worth his/her weight will bat the delay straight back at them.

True, but late arrival of a Driver due to a taxi issue is the direct cause of a train being late from depot, and I have seen late train crew due to late taxi being given as a reason in the past by some TOCs. Decent managers should deflect incorrect blame yes, create incorrect blame no.

 

[dk1]

True, but late arrival of a Driver due to a taxi issue is the direct cause of a train being late from depot, and I have seen late train crew due to late taxi being given as a reason in the past by some TOCs. Decent managers should deflect incorrect blame yes, create incorrect blame no.

Totally agree. Why argue with something for no reason when the root cause is obvious? That wastes everybody's time & just accept responsibility. It's not their own money for goodness sakes.

 

[Tracked]

Several months ago I was on the 5:19 LDS-STP, as explained by the guard on the train (EMT HST) it was because the reservations had been put on the incorrect train, so it was late off the depot while they swapped them round.

Used to get the Leeds - Southampton Central voyager (06:46 from Doncaster, comes from York now), which after the May timetable change last year got to a point where it was late off Crofton depot more often than on time.

 

[IanXC]

That could lead to some very convoluted announcements.

"This train was late because it was late from the depot which was because maintenance of the train occurred later than originally planned due to other trains arriving late at the depot; the first train that was late at the depot was delayed due to overheard wire problems, the second train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a signal failure, and the third train that was late to the depot was delayed due to a delay on a previous journey which was delayed due to congestion due to a failed train earlier in the day; these three trains all arriving late to the depot resulted in this train being released from the depot later than scheduled. We apologise on behalf of all the relevant third parties who caused these knock-on delays"​

where's the Like button?

Absolutely. (while stabbing around in the dark looking for a button).

 

[Llanigraham]

True but all of these things are other reasons to be late. Why do they not say late due to train fault or late due to congestion (the later of which was the reason I got from Cross Country). I think I'm more annoyed at the lack of transparency of rail announcements to be honest.

Why does it matter?
99% of customers couldn't care less.
It is only the "rivet counters" that seem to be concerned.

 

[dk1]

Why does it matter?
99% of customers couldn't care less.
It is only the "rivet counters" that seem to be concerned.

Just say Depot issues & be done with it. The rest is an internal matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does it matter?
99% of customers couldn't care less.
It is only the "rivet counters" that seem to be concerned.

A reason can be useful and can give an indication of the likelihood of further delay.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just say Depot issues & be done with it. The rest is an internal matter.

Quite, but as usual people who cannot and will not see that.

A reason can be useful and can give an indication of the likelihood of further delay.

So if Aunty Mary is told that "due to a late running taxi the driver wasn't collected on time" she is going to know what effect that will have?
Sorry but as I said 99% of rail customers couldn't care less about the reason.
Depot Delay is perfectly adequate.

 

[noddingdonkey]

There is an argument that giving a more specific reason (where one is available) is likely to placate some passengers if something is obviously out of the TOC's control or something that couldn't be reasonably predicted and planned for, and may prevent them sending in complaints/hassling the TOC's social media team.

"Depot issues" is in the same league as "operational difficulties" and is likely to be interpreted - by some - as a euphomism for "we screwed up".

 

[Llama]

A significant proportion of Northern trains late from the depot, and other delays, around Manchester are down to the taxi firm.

 

[43096]

A significant proportion of Northern trains late from the depot, and other delays, around Manchester are down to the taxi firm.

Which rather suggests Northern needs to do something about the taxi firm(s) they use. Passengers pay the TOC to provide a service - it's up to the TOC to manage their suppliers, so things like this just shows poor management by Northern.

 

[Llama]

They've used the same taxi firm for over ten years now. Prior to that we had two minibuses ('staff cars') with drivers employeed directly by the TOC, although the odd taxi was still required at busy times. I will let you guess which was the more reliable setup.

 

[class 9]

Several months ago I was on the 5:19 LDS-STP, as explained by the guard on the train (EMT HST) it was because the reservations had been put on the incorrect train, so it was late off the depot while they swapped them round.

Used to get the Leeds - Southampton Central voyager (06:46 from Doncaster, comes from York now), which after the May timetable change last year got to a point where it was late off Crofton depot more often than on time.

Ever since TPE have have started putting sets onto Crofton, this has affected the on time departures of XCs.

 

[DarloRich]

Which rather suggests Northern needs to do something about the taxi firm(s) they use. Passengers pay the TOC to provide a service - it's up to the TOC to manage their suppliers, so things like this just shows poor management by Northern.

Or that the fines for lateness are less than the saving made by using a cheap taxi firm

 

[700007]

A reason can be useful and can give an indication of the likelihood of further delay.

I agree with this.

If I hear that a train is delayed due to something like damage to the overhead wires, I know this could take a really long time so much so the train is even liable to being cancelled. Whereas if I hear that the train is delayed due to another late running train, I am usually correct in assuming this is something like a 5 minute delay or something.

 

[bramling]

Quite, but as usual people who cannot and will not see that.


So if Aunty Mary is told that "due to a late running taxi the driver wasn't collected on time" she is going to know what effect that will have?
Sorry but as I said 99% of rail customers couldn't care less about the reason.
Depot Delay is perfectly adequate.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of this, people who deal with the travelling public on a face-to-face basis will know that most people are generally happier (for that read less unhappy!) if given a reason which is plausible and goes some way to explaining exactly why there is a problem which is inconveniencing their journey.

By contrast giving out vague stuff like “operational reasons” simply serves to get backs up, which is ultimately putting frontline staff at greater risk of conflict.

Not saying this will calm everyone, but it certainly helps.

My job doesn’t really do customer-facing very often, however I’ve successfully diffused some pretty charged situations simply by being honest with people and attempting to give a decent explanation of exactly what the problem is.

So, yes, rather than fobbing someone off with “train’s defective” I will quite happily explain to someone “both these trains had their shoes knocked off last thing on Christmas Eve, the shoes are what’s underneath the train that picks up the power so without them the train can’t move, we’ve got to get another train to push them out the way, it’s going to take most of the morning to arrange this, oh and it won’t help that someone forgot to trip the trains down before going home for Christmas so all the batteries have gone flat which is going to make it a lot more difficult.” (real-life situation).