Late running trains - who decides whether to hold at a station?

[BanburyBlue]

I regularly catch the 16.49 from Birmingham Snow Hill to Banbury, 1st stop Moor Street then fast to Solihull. The train before mine is a WMT trains service, all stops to Dorridge. Now, this Dorridge train is regularly late, more often late than not. However late it is, they always let it go before the Marylebone train, which results in the Marylebone train often 10-15 mins late by the time it manages to overtake the WMT service at Dorridge. Sometimes they let the Dorridge train go literally 1 or 2 minutes before the Marylebone train. I would have thought they’d be some common sense applied when the train is so late that it will have such an impact on the following service? Wouldn’t Chiltern make representations as it must impact their reliability figures?

What really chuffed me off the other day, was that my morning northbound train from Banbury was held at Banbury to let a late running northbound XC service pass, making my train late. So it seems they can hold trains when it suits them .

 

[Surreytraveller]

Depends what the regulation policy is. Common sense doesn't override whatever policy is in place.
Quite often the regulation policy is the train on time goes on time. Otherwise everything would run late.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I regularly catch the 16.49 from Birmingham Snow Hill to Banbury, 1st stop Moor Street then fast to Solihull. The train before mine is a WMT trains service, all stops to Dorridge. Now, this Dorridge train is regularly late, more often late than not. However late it is, they always let it go before the Marylebone train, which results in the Marylebone train often 10-15 mins late by the time it manages to overtake the WMT service at Dorridge. Sometimes they let the Dorridge train go literally 1 or 2 minutes before the Marylebone train. I would have thought they’d be some common sense applied when the train is so late that it will have such an impact on the following service? Wouldn’t Chiltern make representations as it must impact their reliability figures?

What really chuffed me off the other day, was that my morning northbound train from Banbury was held at Banbury to let a late running northbound XC service pass, making my train late. So it seems they can hold trains when it suits them .

At Leeds, Northern seems to be right at the bottom of the pecking order, below every other operator, freight and wizened old men with pumpcarts.

 

[30907]

The Dorridge train has a 6min turnround there, so if you make it 17min late from Snow Hill you cause considerable problems on the return (at the least, running non-stop Solihull-Moor St and delaying the 1537 ex MYB which forms the 1751 back)

By contrast your train has a 30min turnround at the London end.

So in this case I (as an amateur operator) would hesitate to give you priority.

(Whereas I might think that a train going to Manchester needed considerable TLC to get it there on time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends what the regulation policy is. Common sense doesn't override whatever policy is in place.
Quite often the regulation policy is the train on time goes on time. Otherwise everything would run late.

It sometimes unofficially does. I'm led to believe that if an explanation is given that the train was held due to boarding a disabled passenger, if it doesn't happen *too* often it won't be questioned. Well, at least I've heard that before!

Meanwhile the rather informal operation of the Stourbridge Shuttle also seems to extend to waiting for people, which sort of makes sense given that it has no other purpose than connections.

 

[mangyiscute]

I saw it recently where the 11:16 Cross Country from Oxford to Reading was delayed and arriving at Oxford at 11:29, while the 11:32 GWR service to London Paddington was approaching Oxford at 11:28, where it was stopped short of the platform, and the Cross Country went past it and therefore caused the GWR a 7 min delay, which surprised me as i thought they'd let the GWR go first (as it turned out, due to the Slough disruption it was 30 mins late into Paddington, while the cross country got into Reading 15 late, where it has a 32 min turnaround so it departed on time back northwards)
Perhaps this was to avoid any overcrowding on the GWR train since the 11:02 was cancelled and the 11:32 was only 5 coaches so if they let that in first, all of the Reading and London passengers would cram onto this one train, but by letting the Cross Country first it let the Reading (and the smart London passengers) get on this quieter 9 coach train

 

[BanburyBlue]

The Dorridge train has a 6min turnround there, so if you make it 17min late from Snow Hill you cause considerable problems on the return (at the least, running non-stop Solihull-Moor St and delaying the 1537 ex MYB which forms the 1751 back)

By contrast your train has a 30min turnround at the London end.

So in this case I (as an amateur operator) would hesitate to give you priority.

(Whereas I might think that a train going to Manchester needed considerable TLC to get it there on time).

Sorry, not sure what your point is here? The Dorridge train in my post above, has sometimes been 12/13 minutes late by the time it arrives at Snow Hill. It then leaves with my train a minute after. I wouldn’t expect it to be held for a long time at Snow Hill, but when it’s allowed to go at 16.50, with my train at 16.51, it seems madness.
just

 

[30907]

Sorry, not sure what your point is here? The Dorridge train in my post above, has sometimes been 12/13 minutes late by the time it arrives at Snow Hill. It then leaves with my train a minute after. I wouldn’t expect it to be held for a long time at Snow Hill, but when it’s allowed to go at 16.50, with my train at 16.51, it seems madness.
just

Sorry, I thought you were referring to its regular pattern of late running and using recenttraintimes.co.uk the greatest delay was 9min and the average 2.5.
My general point was that there was a strong case for giving the stopper priority.

If it is late enough to delay the departure of your train, there might be a case for holding it further and running it back from Dorridge non stop as I suggested.
But even then, if your train reaches MYB 12/13 late it will still return on time and make all its booked stops.

 

[Route115?]

I was at Strood a few weeks ago and just missed the connection to Tonbridge. (I would have caught it if I had alighted opposite the subway it was that close). I should say that I was on the the local train via Dartford which was held to allow the HS1 train through and those passengers would have caught the train). Even so, holding the train for 30 seconds when the next service was an hour later and the a minute late into Tonbridge would probably not have caused any problems there. However as long as punctuality is reported but catching connections isn't you can see why it happens. I should also say that this happened during the leaf fall season. That might be an excuse for operators, the passenger couldn't care less.

 

[150219]

I regularly catch the 16.49 from Birmingham Snow Hill to Banbury, 1st stop Moor Street then fast to Solihull. The train before mine is a WMT trains service, all stops to Dorridge. Now, this Dorridge train is regularly late, more often late than not. However late it is, they always let it go before the Marylebone train, which results in the Marylebone train often 10-15 mins late by the time it manages to overtake the WMT service at Dorridge. Sometimes they let the Dorridge train go literally 1 or 2 minutes before the Marylebone train. I would have thought they’d be some common sense applied when the train is so late that it will have such an impact on the following service? Wouldn’t Chiltern make representations as it must impact their reliability figures?

What really chuffed me off the other day, was that my morning northbound train from Banbury was held at Banbury to let a late running northbound XC service pass, making my train late. So it seems they can hold trains when it suits them .

To answer your question 'who decides whether to hold at a station', this is/can be decided by a few different roles depending on what the desired cause and/or outcome is. These can be one or some of: -

(a) WMT control
(b) Chiltern control
(c) NR control
(d) NR signaller

It may be that the request to run the WMT first is because it is running fast or non-stop to destination, so that it can come back on time or with reduced delay. This may be requested by WMT control to NR control, who will inform the NR signaller.

It may be that the request is to run the WMT first, but will not have stops taken out and by passed by the Chiltern at Tyseley. This may be requested by Chiltern control to NR control, who will inform the NR signaller.

In the case of my first example, WMT control may ask Chiltern control to make additional stops to cover for the WMT running fast or non-stop. The chain of communication would then be WMT control to Chiltern control, to NR control, to NR signaller.

If the WMT is so late that it can't run first, then the NR signaller will decide to run the Chiltern first.

If the WMT is losing time gradually on route, this is difficult to predict from all sides, but the NR signaller may notice this first but regulating will still be decided by the NR signaller unless further advice is sought.

If the Chiltern traincrew are needed at their relieving point, then Chiltern control may request to NR control to run first in front of the WMT for this reason. NR control will then decide whether this can be achieved or not.

 

[TUC]

At Leeds, Northern seems to be right at the bottom of the pecking order, below every other operator, freight and wizened old men with pumpcarts.

I know there will be multiple other reasons, but one does get the feeling that it is partly driven by Northern's 'poor me' attitude and failure to fight their corner even when they have a good case.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Not quite sure what you're referring to.

 

[BanburyBlue]

To answer your question 'who decides whether to hold at a station', this is/can be decided by a few different roles depending on what the desired cause and/or outcome is. These can be one or some of: -

(a) WMT control
(b) Chiltern control
(c) NR control
(d) NR signaller

It may be that the request to run the WMT first is because it is running fast or non-stop to destination, so that it can come back on time or with reduced delay. This may be requested by WMT control to NR control, who will inform the NR signaller.

It may be that the request is to run the WMT first, but will not have stops taken out and by passed by the Chiltern at Tyseley. This may be requested by Chiltern control to NR control, who will inform the NR signaller.

In the case of my first example, WMT control may ask Chiltern control to make additional stops to cover for the WMT running fast or non-stop. The chain of communication would then be WMT control to Chiltern control, to NR control, to NR signaller.

If the WMT is so late that it can't run first, then the NR signaller will decide to run the Chiltern first.

If the WMT is losing time gradually on route, this is difficult to predict from all sides, but the NR signaller may notice this first but regulating will still be decided by the NR signaller unless further advice is sought.

If the Chiltern traincrew are needed at their relieving point, then Chiltern control may request to NR control to run first in front of the WMT for this reason. NR control will then decide whether this can be achieved or not.

Thanks for this.

On Monday this week, the Dorridge train was late (as per usual), and they let it go literally 1 minute before the Chiltern Marylebone train was due to depart. I think they must have removed some stops from the Dorridge train, because we only lost 7 minutes by the time we passed Dorridge. Perhaps to do with the comments above, to get the train to Dorridge for its turnaround back. Other times, when late, if the Dorridge train is let go 5 mins before the Chiltern train (understand they can't hold it forever, as other knock on impacts down the line) we can sometimes be 15 mins late by the time we get to Leamington.

Must admit, I've never had the scenario where the Chiltern train overtakes the WMT train at Tyseley.

Considering how often the Dorridge train is late (more often than not), and hence how often the Chiltern train is late, wouldn't Chiltern raise it somewhere as an issue? Must be costing them money with delay repay.

Now, I can un

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The signallers on the Snow Hill lines normally (or certainly did when I was there) keep trains on running order. I.e. the Dorridge train may be late but was due out before your train and, as it wasn't yet your departure time, was given the path at Moor St.

I've had many occasions where I've left Snow Hill on time and been held at Moor St for a late departing Chiltern from the bay. Therefore arriving into Dorridge after my scheduled departure time. I have been ran down the chord to Tyseley to let Chiltern/XC services past, but it is rare.

One of the reasons, as listed previously, is turnaround times are generally tight on WMT services (4-6 minutes) whereas Chiltern normally have plenty of time during or on terminating to allow for such a holdup. Delays to local services also have a bigger knock on effect, including on Chiltern, XC and WMR services crossing over at Tyseley North junction and at Moor St.

It may be frustrating to be behind a stopper (I'm now regularly behind Wolves stoppers!) but I bet the Chiltern either arrived or departed London on time.

Chiltern will highly likely be reporting it yes, but if the signallers work that way then it sometimes works in their favour too. As for the 15 minutes, just think how much disruption or how many trains that could affect on the WMR network. That could mean a train is expressed back to Moor St meaning no train for an hour given the reduced timetables. All to run your train on time (yes I know it wouldn't likely lose that amount of time in reality) when it likely gets to its destination on time anyway.

 

[BanburyBlue]

The signallers on the Snow Hill lines normally (or certainly did when I was there) keep trains on running order. I.e. the Dorridge train may be late but was due out before your train and, as it wasn't yet your departure time, was given the path at Moor St.

I've had many occasions where I've left Snow Hill on time and been held at Moor St for a late departing Chiltern from the bay. Therefore arriving into Dorridge after my scheduled departure time. I have been ran down the chord to Tyseley to let Chiltern/XC services past, but it is rare.

One of the reasons, as listed previously, is turnaround times are generally tight on WMT services (4-6 minutes) whereas Chiltern normally have plenty of time during or on terminating to allow for such a holdup. Delays to local services also have a bigger knock on effect, including on Chiltern, XC and WMR services crossing over at Tyseley North junction and at Moor St.

It may be frustrating to be behind a stopper (I'm now regularly behind Wolves stoppers!) but I bet the Chiltern either arrived or departed London on time.

Chiltern will highly likely be reporting it yes, but if the signallers work that way then it sometimes works in their favour too. As for the 15 minutes, just think how much disruption or how many trains that could affect on the WMR network. That could mean a train is expressed back to Moor St meaning no train for an hour given the reduced timetables. All to run your train on time (yes I know it wouldn't likely lose that amount of time in reality) when it likely gets to its destination on time anyway.

Thanks for the explanation. I can understand why the Dorridge train would be let go if there was clear headway between the trains, after all, if you always gave 'on time' services priority you're adding delay upon delay to an already delayed service. I'm just surprised with the scenario I had last week. My train was due to depart Snow Hill at 16.51, and the Dorridge train came in at 16.50 and was allowed to go first, by which time the WMT service was already (I think) 15 mins - ish late, so would already have missed its Dorridge turnaround. But if that's the rules, that's the rules and can see it can benefit both companies depending on the scenario.

What does 'running down the chord to Tyseley' mean?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Apologies, the Tyseley Chord is a short section of track that runs adjacent to the Dorridge line between Acocks Green and Tyseley in the Birmingham direction but is bi-directional.

It means you can be signalled into platform 3 at Tyseley and held at the signal for a train to pass (usually XC in my experience) through Tyseley platform 1 to get track position. I have been held in it towards Birmingham once too but that seems rarer.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Apologies, the Tyseley Chord is a short section of track that runs adjacent to the Dorridge line between Acocks Green and Tyseley in the Birmingham direction but is bi-directional.

It means you can be signalled into platform 3 at Tyseley and held at the signal for a train to pass (usually XC in my experience) through Tyseley platform 1 to get track position. I have been held in it towards Birmingham once too but that seems rarer.

Thanks