Leeds to Skipton leaf fall disruption

[oscarthecat92]

Looks like there is heavy disruption on the Airedale and Wharfdale lines today with Leeds to Skiptons suspended and lots of delays on the other routes, down to slippery rails

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Seems a bit strange and I don’t remember this level of disruption in previous years - maybe the rail treatment train failed to run?

 

[rower40]

Salisbury-related extreme caution on the part of drivers. And I don't blame them for one minute.

 

[Gems]

The conditions early this morning were extreme. I do believe the treatment train ran though. Just what has caused this I'm unsure, maybe a rise in overnight temperature creating a dew, I just don't know.
What I do know though working these lines is that first thing this morning was 'Squeaky bum time' Sailsbury is not lost on us either, and there was no way in this world we were going to accept a signal inviting us to go down the steep gradient towards 'Springs junction' and the single track there whilst a train was coming up the branch.
I'm absolutely amazed that Network rail seem incapable of double blocking Springs and Esholt junctions. Way too slow to respond to conditions in my view.

 

[oscarthecat92]

thanks for the replies - just seems odd this is the only line locally affected. Even NRE mentions there is a normal service on the Bradford Interchange route

 

[skyhigh]

thanks for the replies - just seems odd this is the only line locally affected. Even NRE mentions there is a normal service on the Bradford Interchange route

The thing with Leeds Triangle is that all the services interwork with short turnarounds so any delays snowball. Other lines were also affected (such as the Harrogate line) but delays were less noticeable.

 

[Llama]

Salisbury-related extreme caution on the part of drivers. And I don't blame them for one minute.

I wouldn't necessarily say that's got too much bearing on it, this leaf fall season is no worse than previous ones and yes Salisbury is a reminder of what can happen but to say everyone is crawling round in case of a spad & collision is wide of the mark. Drive to the conditions, and even when the conditions are bad it should still be possible to run a service.

There's still a wide range of driving techniques, I travelled passenger on a train recently when the conditions were pretty bad and a new driver from another depot (but same TOC) was driving, I was in the middle cab. The standard of driving was so poor it was almost unbelievable. Traction power controller treated like an on-off switch - 0-100% power on one movement then sitting there while the unit reacts to the inevitable wheelslip; massive overreaction to cautionary aspects - we're talking ~line speed then chucking the brake in down to ~10mph as soon as a yellow aspect seen, then crawling up to the yellow hoping it clears and then if it does taking 0-100% power again. Wheelslip everywhere, heavy braking and reliance on sanders, I've never seen such general poor driving. He lost 15 minutes on the journey, on the return journey where I drove the same units in the sane conditions (with more stations to stop at) I drove smoothly and braked early & light, only had WSP activity on a couple of occasions and only lost three minutes, time that then got made up with recovery time as I approached the destination.

 

[Brush 4]

That sounds like the train version of many car drivers in ice and snow. far too much power, endless wheel spin and going nowhere. Minimum power, second or third gear - on the level - and to stop gently down the gears, with early gentle braking. Gears for holding back downhill.

 

[30907]

Speaking with staff on a train sat outside Shipley later in the day, one of the issues was failure to activate track circuits due to contamination.
The RHTT ran in the early hours but didn't visit Forster Square which might on this occasion have been a misjudgement as the first problems seem to have been on that section.

 

[quantinghome]

The conditions early this morning were extreme. I do believe the treatment train ran though. Just what has caused this I'm unsure, maybe a rise in overnight temperature creating a dew, I just don't know.
What I do know though working these lines is that first thing this morning was 'Squeaky bum time' Sailsbury is not lost on us either, and there was no way in this world we were going to accept a signal inviting us to go down the steep gradient towards 'Springs junction' and the single track there whilst a train was coming up the branch.
I'm absolutely amazed that Network rail seem incapable of double blocking Springs and Esholt junctions. Way too slow to respond to conditions in my view.

There has been a massive amount of tree removal along that section of line. Doesn't that significantly reduce the risk?

 

[O L Leigh]

There has been a massive amount of tree removal along that section of line. Doesn't that significantly reduce the risk?

Only if the problem is actually caused by leaf contamination. Fine rain, mist and condensation on the rail is treacherous and has nothing to do with vegetation.

 

[asw22]

This may have been evident yesterday (7th Nov) as my return journey took 10 to 15 minutes longer than scheduled on this route

 

[LCC106]

I wouldn't necessarily say that's got too much bearing on it, this leaf fall season is no worse than previous ones and yes Salisbury is a reminder of what can happen but to say everyone is crawling round in case of a spad & collision is wide of the mark. Drive to the conditions, and even when the conditions are bad it should still be possible to run a service.

There's still a wide range of driving techniques, I travelled passenger on a train recently when the conditions were pretty bad and a new driver from another depot (but same TOC) was driving, I was in the middle cab. The standard of driving was so poor it was almost unbelievable. Traction power controller treated like an on-off switch - 0-100% power on one movement then sitting there while the unit reacts to the inevitable wheelslip; massive overreaction to cautionary aspects - we're talking ~line speed then chucking the brake in down to ~10mph as soon as a yellow aspect seen, then crawling up to the yellow hoping it clears and then if it does taking 0-100% power again. Wheelslip everywhere, heavy braking and reliance on sanders, I've never seen such general poor driving. He lost 15 minutes on the journey, on the return journey where I drove the same units in the sane conditions (with more stations to stop at) I drove smoothly and braked early & light, only had WSP activity on a couple of occasions and only lost three minutes, time that then got made up with recovery time as I approached the destination.

If the standard of driving “was so bad” in your mind at the same TOC, I hope you flagged it up with their depot.

 

[thejuggler]

You can cut down as many trees along the tracks as you want, but this weekend there were high winds and heavy rain in the area which would blow wet leaves hundreds of metres.

One carriageway of the Leeds bypass was closed over half term while repairs were carried out. The contractor spent the last two days of the job road sweeping the leaves which were blown across the closed road and weren't dispersed by moving traffic.

I imagine the sheltered railway cuttings were full of the blown leaf litter.

 

[dctraindriver]

If the standard of driving “was so bad” in your mind at the same TOC, I hope you flagged it up with their depot.

Or the driver.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Only if the problem is actually caused by leaf contamination. Fine rain, mist and condensation on the rail is treacherous and has nothing to do with vegetation.

Is there any time of the year we can expect a punctual service on the railway? Summer – too hot and speed restrictions, winter – too cold with frozen points and the dreaded snow, autumn – too many leaves, a bit breezy and a bit wet. Are we OK in April?

 

[Ianigsy]

To be honest, I’ve thought for ages that Bradford-Ilkley in particular needed a leaf fall timetable, but perhaps it’s too difficult to work out. The last mile or two into Guiseley is a sustained climb through dense woodland.

Back when I used to commute by train on a daily basis, it used to be a regular occurrence at this time of year fir my train home (1732 Leeds-Ilkley) to be held at Guiseley because of a delay to the preceding train from Bradford. The signalling on the Ilkley line was designed for the service of 30 years ago, so a train leaving Guiseley has to call at both Menston and Burley before it clears the section.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is there any time of the year we can expect a punctual service on the railway? Summer – too hot and speed restrictions, winter – too cold with frozen points and the dreaded snow, autumn – too many leaves, a bit breezy and a bit wet. Are we OK in April?

Why so despondent? I've been having no trouble keeping to time this last week. My only delays have been signaller induced.

 

[Llama]

Or the driver.

Yes the driver knows my thoughts when I took the train off him and he saw I'd been going pass. He didn't like it but I didn't like what he'd been doing either. It's up to his managers to manage him, I'm not here just to make friends but I'm not here to grass people up either. There's no evidence he was speeding or other specific indiscretions available to me, the speedo doesn't work in middle cabs on that traction, it was just awful driving technique demonstrated for an hour and a half. If I had a trainee taking traction power or braking like that just once they'd get a clip round the ear.

 

[Moonshot]

Is there any time of the year we can expect a punctual service on the railway? Summer – too hot and speed restrictions, winter – too cold with frozen points and the dreaded snow, autumn – too many leaves, a bit breezy and a bit wet. Are we OK in April?

Are you saying that the rail network should be totally immune to outside conditions?

 

[greyman42]

thanks for the replies - just seems odd this is the only line locally affected. Even NRE mentions there is a normal service on the Bradford Interchange route

The 1023 York to Blackpool service was cancelled yesterday due to leaf fall. Does anyone know any more detail?

 

[Mat17]

Is there any time of the year we can expect a punctual service on the railway? Summer – too hot and speed restrictions, winter – too cold with frozen points and the dreaded snow, autumn – too many leaves, a bit breezy and a bit wet. Are we OK in April?

Depends on the kind of snow I guess.

 

[Halish Railway]

To be honest, I’ve thought for ages that Bradford-Ilkley in particular needed a leaf fall timetable, but perhaps it’s too difficult to work out. The last mile or two into Guiseley is a sustained climb through dense woodland.

Back when I used to commute by train on a daily basis, it used to be a regular occurrence at this time of year fir my train home (1732 Leeds-Ilkley) to be held at Guiseley because of a delay to the preceding train from Bradford. The signalling on the Ilkley line was designed for the service of 30 years ago, so a train leaving Guiseley has to call at both Menston and Burley before it clears the section.

I’d have thought that the placement of the signalling blocks is much older than that and wouldn’t have changed much since the days of semaphores & local signal boxes.

I have noticed over the past 2 years a lot of devegatation & tree removal works have taken place on the Wharfedale line, most notably around the points outside of Ilkley where there are several regular signals and ground signals which often bring trains to a stop in the event of disruption caused by issues such as leaf fall.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The 1023 York to Blackpool service was cancelled yesterday due to leaf fall. Does anyone know any more detail?

There was some sort of problem with the unit which was supposed to form the 10:23 earlier in the day whilst forming the 06:13 Blackburn to Blackpool North- delay stated to be an issue with a level crossing. Unfortunately I don't have any more information- I'm guessing possibly the train encountered exceptionally bad wheelslip/leaf fall and was unable to stop as intended?

 

[trainmananthon]

There was some sort of problem with the unit which was supposed to form the 10:23 earlier in the day whilst forming the 06:13 Blackburn to Blackpool North- delay stated to be an issue with a level crossing. Unfortunately I don't have any more information- I'm guessing possibly the train encountered exceptionally bad wheelslip/leaf fall and was unable to stop as intended?

I was on that 0613. It kept disappearing off track circuits and approaching I think it's hospital level crossing, the barriers began to raise in front of the train. It was terminated at Preston, ran empty to Blackpool about an hour after arriving, and once it left nothing was allowed to leave heading to Blackpool until the train had been confirmed passing Kirkham.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I was on that 0613. It kept disappearing off track circuits and approaching I think it's hospital level crossing, the barriers began to raise in front of the train. It was terminated at Preston, ran empty to Blackpool about an hour after arriving, and once it left nothing was allowed to leave heading to Blackpool until the train had been confirmed passing Kirkham.

Crap! Many thanks for your information.

 

[Unstoppable]

If the standard of driving “was so bad” in your mind at the same TOC, I hope you flagged it up with their depot.

Why be a grass? No one likes a grass. Let DTMs and downloads do their job.

 

[randyrippley]

Is there any time of the year we can expect a punctual service on the railway? Summer – too hot and speed restrictions, winter – too cold with frozen points and the dreaded snow, autumn – too many leaves, a bit breezy and a bit wet. Are we OK in April?

Too many showers in April

 

[LCC106]

Why be a grass? No one likes a grass. Let DTMs and downloads do their job.

I agree… but why call a colleague out on a public forum? Why not just speak to the depot manager (if you are as concerned as the poster seemed to be) or more appropriately speak to the driver from their own company, as the poster subsequently mentioned they did. Still no need to flag it up on here though. Yes, I agree downloads count for a lot but as the poster felt so strongly they either shouldn’t have highlighted it on here or should have raised genuine concerns in a more appropriate manner. Thanks for asking for clarification though. Much appreciated.

 

[Llama]

Why not flag it up on here? If the driver reads this they'll know who they are. Nobody else will, nor could they find out. The stuff I said is relevant in a thread about low adhesion when someone is driving in a manner that is as though low adhesion is a complete myth. Conditions weren't that bad, but they made them look bad by their driving. The train was packed and people were being thrown around. Going from 100% power immediately to 70% brake for a running brake test in one movement of the PBC is undefendable.
The easy way out would be to turn a blind eye, I raised my concerns with the person concerned without going behind their back. By no stretch of interpretation could this driver's driving be considered professional. He was clearly relatively new judging by appearance, I will say that if someone significantly more experienced than me going pass on my train raised concerns calmly but directly with me when I was a young(er) pup about my driving technique I would've listened and had a word with myself.

Of the options available to me - let's boil it down to: do nothing, say something to his face, or grass him up; my conscience tells me I could've picked a worse one than I did. I'm poacher not gamekeeper, managing drivers is above my pay grade.

 

[BoroAndy]

I wouldn't necessarily say that's got too much bearing on it, this leaf fall season is no worse than previous ones and yes Salisbury is a reminder of what can happen but to say everyone is crawling round in case of a spad & collision is wide of the mark. Drive to the conditions, and even when the conditions are bad it should still be possible to run a service.

There's still a wide range of driving techniques, I travelled passenger on a train recently when the conditions were pretty bad and a new driver from another depot (but same TOC) was driving, I was in the middle cab. The standard of driving was so poor it was almost unbelievable. Traction power controller treated like an on-off switch - 0-100% power on one movement then sitting there while the unit reacts to the inevitable wheelslip; massive overreaction to cautionary aspects - we're talking ~line speed then chucking the brake in down to ~10mph as soon as a yellow aspect seen, then crawling up to the yellow hoping it clears and then if it does taking 0-100% power again. Wheelslip everywhere, heavy braking and reliance on sanders, I've never seen such general poor driving. He lost 15 minutes on the journey, on the return journey where I drove the same units in the sane conditions (with more stations to stop at) I drove smoothly and braked early & light, only had WSP activity on a couple of occasions and only lost three minutes, time that then got made up with recovery time as I approached the destination.

That is unbelievable. All that money spent on training a driver? All those potential great drivers rejected because they can't tick four dots on a piece of paper quick enough? Then basic errors that would see you fail a car driving test!! Unbelievable.