Lifts/elevators as a form of rapid transit

[PTR 444]

Elevators in tall skyscrapers are essentially a means of moving large amounts of people vertically, not too dissimilar to the purpose of trains which is to move large amounts of people in a horizontal direction. Also, many taller buildings have local and express elevators, a bit like how railways have local and express stopping patterns. The biggest difference is that with an elevator, they work on demand so you can travel straight to the floor you want, but this involves lengthy waits if there are lots of people on different floors and none of the lifts are where you want them to be.

On the other hand, most rapid transit metro railways work on a turn-up-and-go basis, so you can never be waiting more than a few minutes before a train turns up. Depending on the time of day and location, you could be waiting longer for a lift than a train on your morning commute!

Have there been any attempts to design or build an elevator system that works in the style of rapid transit rather than on-demand? While the benefits would be shorter waiting times for vertical travel, the main drawback is that you would either need to build enough lift shafts to sustain a turn-up-and-go frequency, or have a ‘Merry-go-round’ style setup consisting of a single up and down shaft and a ‘carriage’ for each floor. The former would be prohibitively costly if not impossible to retrofit into existing buildings, while the latter would take ages to travel from the ground to top floor (since it would need to stop at all floors on the way up - a new-build Paternoster would not be acceptable today) and would only work if all floors are equidistant to each other.

 

[Basil Jet]

A new build paternoster might be accepted if instead of stepping directly onto the vertically moving cradle, you stepped into a cabin which closed its doors and then propelled itself horizontally into a vertically moving cradle. Obviously the system would know where all the cabins were and would wait rather than try to put two cabins in the same cradle. I don't know if such a system exists, but I'm sure Tom Scott would have told me if it did.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think that's largely unnecessary whilst we have destination dispatch or more automated systems that recognises where you want to travel and automatically allocates you you a car

Admittedly awkward if you're your door entry fob or smart card is automatically programmed to only take you to the floor you work on and you wish to override it but not impossible and and I dare say that most people if they wanted to to go a couple of floors up or down from where they normally are located could quite easily just use the stairs

 

[gordonthemoron]

Mid Level escalators in Hong Kong do that to an extent, however they only go in one direction

 

[stuu]

Some bigger buildings have a system where you choose your floor before walking into the lift lobby; the system then tells you which lift to wait for. That’s not quite the same thing but presumably there is some sort of algorithm which allocates the stopping pattern most efficiently.

On a slight tangent, as per the mid levels comment, are there any street escalators anywhere in the UK which just exist to climb hills?

 

[SargeNpton]

Some bigger buildings have a system where you choose your floor before walking into the lift lobby; the system then tells you which lift to wait for. That’s not quite the same thing but presumably there is some sort of algorithm which allocates the stopping pattern most efficiently.

On a slight tangent, as per the mid levels comment, are there any street escalators anywhere in the UK which just exist to climb hills?

Several examples of cliff lifts and funiculars. Mostly on the coast, but there is one at Bridgenorth to take people between the low town and high town.

Also the remains of one lift in Bristol, close to the Clifton Suspension Bridge, to take people from top to bottom of the Avon Gorge.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Elevators in tall skyscrapers are essentially a means of moving large amounts of people vertically, not too dissimilar to the purpose of trains which is to move large amounts of people in a horizontal direction. Also, many taller buildings have local and express elevators, a bit like how railways have local and express stopping patterns. The biggest difference is that with an elevator, they work on demand so you can travel straight to the floor you want, but this involves lengthy waits if there are lots of people on different floors and none of the lifts are where you want them to be.

On the other hand, most rapid transit metro railways work on a turn-up-and-go basis, so you can never be waiting more than a few minutes before a train turns up. Depending on the time of day and location, you could be waiting longer for a lift than a train on your morning commute!

Have there been any attempts to design or build an elevator system that works in the style of rapid transit rather than on-demand? While the benefits would be shorter waiting times for vertical travel, the main drawback is that you would either need to build enough lift shafts to sustain a turn-up-and-go frequency, or have a ‘Merry-go-round’ style setup consisting of a single up and down shaft and a ‘carriage’ for each floor. The former would be prohibitively costly if not impossible to retrofit into existing buildings, while the latter would take ages to travel from the ground to top floor (since it would need to stop at all floors on the way up - a new-build Paternoster would not be acceptable today) and would only work if all floors are equidistant to each other.

It sounds like you're describing something like this:

Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about their revolving lifts

Doorless cabins, known as paternosters, are used for everything from speed dating to concerts. Now fans are fighting off attempts to restrict their use because of safety fears

www.theguardian.com

 

[Devonian]

Turn-up-and-go really only works if the stopping pattern is consistent, so stopping at every floor automatically for a lift. There are indeed some lifts that work this way, but the only ones I recall serve two or three floors only at airports or stations. Covent Garden tube comes to mind - I seem to recall that the lifts are not under passenger control and just rise and fall, with passengers directed to the next lift on the landing like the next train at a platform - and possibly at Heathrow terminal 5.

If there are more than a few floors, the limited capacity of the lift itself means that is unlikely that there will be a passenger on board for every floor, so it no longer makes sense to stop at every landing.

As soon as there is the likelihood that floors can be skipped, it becomes more efficient to use computer control to respond to call buttons and direct lifts on demand. Lifts were a very early adopter of this sort of technology. Above a certain number of floors, it can be more efficient still to have intermediate lift lobbies where people change from a lift from higher floors to a lift for lower floors, otherwise the number of lifts needed to serve all floors without excessive delay becomes impractical.

 

[PTR 444]

It sounds like you're describing something like this:

Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about their revolving lifts

Doorless cabins, known as paternosters, are used for everything from speed dating to concerts. Now fans are fighting off attempts to restrict their use because of safety fears

www.theguardian.com

A modern day version of a Paternoster could use the same technology, but stopping at every floor with doors separating the shaft like on a conventional lift. While this would initially make a full cycle slower than a traditional Paternoster, you could speed it up in between stops to make up for it.

On a building with several floors, it would make sense to also have an express lift next to the Paternoster to allow for faster journeys from the ground to higher floors.

 

[stuu]

Several examples of cliff lifts and funiculars. Mostly on the coast, but there is one at Bridgenorth to take people between the low town and high town.

Also the remains of one lift in Bristol, close to the Clifton Suspension Bridge, to take people from top to bottom of the Avon Gorge.

Yes, I know... none of those are escalators, which is what I asked... are there even any public lifts apart from at various seaside locations?

 

[Ken X]

The most efficient form of people moving lift, as stated previously, was the Paternoster. These have fallen out of favour due to health and safety concerns.
Destination Control is pretty efficient but requires the user to understand the process to get the best out of it. Often people seem to travel as a pair or group and then require different destination floors which confounds the algorithm. The parking mode of a lift can also speed up operations. For example lifts can be programmed to park at lower floors in the mornings and upper floors in the afternoons to improve response speed.
Tall buildings benefit from staged lifts so every 50 floors or so you transfer to a new group to move higher or lower.
The science of people flows in buildings can get somewhat complex.
Building evacuation using lifts is even more challenging. As is the entry of a building by emergency services using lifts.

 

[Basil Jet]

Yes, I know... none of those are escalators, which is what I asked... are there even any public lifts apart from at various seaside locations?

There's an inclined lift in Ebbw Vale, you can see it at
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.777...4!1sNQiAGdjScI58d9rdRDXs8g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[Bletchleyite]

I visited an office yesterday where you select your floor to call the lift, and then it allocates the lifts appropriately for the most efficient use. This is perhaps a bit more like a railway albeit a dynamically timetabled one.

Paternosters might be cool, but the main problem with them isn't safety (as if it was there'd be ways to fix it, e.g. slowing more at each floor and adding a form of doors, plus entrapment detection) but the fact that they do not provide for wheelchair or indeed any form of disabled accessibility. I don't think they're fundamentally any more dangerous than an escalator if you provide some sort of protection against getting trapped between the car and the floor. Because of the need to enter and leave the car quickly, they also have quite a low car capacity, typically 1 or 2 people at a time.

 

[edwin_m]

With a lift, the times between the top and the bottom and the time between each floor are much less than the equivalents on a railway (the end to end journey and the station to station time). The capacity of each car is also less than a train. All these factors favour an on-demand model rather than fixed stopping pattern.

 

[PTR 444]

Paternosters might be cool, but the main problem with them isn't safety (as if it was there'd be ways to fix it, e.g. slowing more at each floor and adding a form of doors, plus entrapment detection) but the fact that they do not provide for wheelchair or indeed any form of disabled accessibility.

Surely the accessibility issue could be resolved by stopping the cars at each level? Or are they not large enough to accommodate a wheelchair?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the accessibility issue could be resolved by stopping the cars at each level? Or are they not large enough to accommodate a wheelchair?

An "all stations stopper" lift would be way too slow.

 

[PTR 444]

An "all stations stopper" lift would be way too slow.

True, although you could design a version which runs faster between stops.

 

[edwin_m]

In Israel they have "Shabbat lifts" that run continuously calling at every floor during the Sabbath, for those for whom it is forbidden to press a button.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Israel they have "Shabbat lifts" that run continuously calling at every floor during the Sabbath, for those for whom it is forbidden to press a button.

I must admit I've always found that about as bizarre as Islamic mortgages, where you pay something that looks remarkably like interest, but isn't interest, honest guv.

You're either spending the day for religious learning, worship etc or you're not, just as you're either paying to borrow money or you're not. Switching the lights on and off is a bit de minimis. Walking up the stairs is more "work"!

 

[AndrewE]

Surely the accessibility issue could be resolved by stopping the cars at each level? Or are they not large enough to accommodate a wheelchair?

This accessibility thing is mad! As long as there is a good quality conventional lift as well, why not have a parallel paternoster to do the crowd-shifting? We haven't banned double-decker buses because you can't get upstairs in a wheelchair (thank goodness!)

 

[Shimbleshanks]

On a slight tangent, as per the mid levels comment, are there any street escalators anywhere in the UK which just exist to climb hills?

What about between Edinburgh Waverley station and Princes Street?

 

[Jimini]

I visited an office yesterday where you select your floor to call the lift, and then it allocates the lifts appropriately for the most efficient use. This is perhaps a bit more like a railway albeit a dynamically timetabled one.

Ours do that. Hit your destination floor on one of the panels, and it'll give you a A > H door to head to.

There's a ground floor (American company = Level 1) point straight off the reception, plus a short escalator ride up to the mezzanine level (Level 2). If you want an odd numbered floor, it's the level 1 lobby, for an even one, it's level 2 on the mezzanine.

The lifts are double-decked, so quite often you'll be sailing up to say level 16 from the mezzanine, but it'll pause on level 14 without the doors opening, and the screens will display "other deck loading", as the lower half of the lift has opened to let people on / off at level 13.

 

[Basil Jet]

In Israel they have "Shabbat lifts" that run continuously calling at every floor during the Sabbath, for those for whom it is forbidden to press a button.

Why, when voice activated lifts have no conceivable drawbacks?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Have there been any attempts to design or build an elevator system that works in the style of rapid transit rather than on-demand?

There are several lifts in Genoa which are part of the public transport system, including the Ascensore Castello d'Albertis-Montegalletto.

They're on my bucket list.

 

[stuu]

What about between Edinburgh Waverley station and Princes Street?

That's part of the access to the station, so there will be lots of those... I was thinking of things like this in Bilbao, where they exist as part of the street

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's part of the access to the station, so there will be lots of those... I was thinking of things like this in Bilbao, where they exist as part of the street

I know there's a run of escalators like that in Montreux from the bus stop to the station.

As for cliff lifts (that are lifts and not funiculars) there's one on the Isle of Wight but I forget where. Sandown maybe?

 

[telstarbox]

Brussels has a free lift.

 

[AF91]

I believe there is a lift system in development in which the the lift cars can switch between shafts so that multiple lifts can work in the same shaft and lifts can pass each other.

 

[PTR 444]

I know there's a run of escalators like that in Montreux from the bus stop to the station.

As for cliff lifts (that are lifts and not funiculars) there's one on the Isle of Wight but I forget where. Sandown maybe?

Shanklin

https://maps.app.goo.gl/tmEyBfc8Daoqig7c6?g_st=ic

 

[zwk500]

I must admit I've always found that about as bizarre as Islamic mortgages, where you pay something that looks remarkably like interest, but isn't interest, honest guv.

You're either spending the day for religious learning, worship etc or you're not, just as you're either paying to borrow money or you're not. Switching the lights on and off is a bit de minimis. Walking up the stairs is more "work"!

Religious rules like this are important only for the believers' beliefs, and it doesn't matter if people who don't share those beliefs see any relevance in them. I personally am non-religious, but I'd never presume to tell somebody else they shouldn't worship in the way they feel matters to them.

Back on topic, is the inclinator (or whatever it technically was) between the Millennium Bridge and St Pauls still in use?