Liverpool Disruption 28 Feb 2017 - RAIB report released 30/11/17

[mikemcniven]

Disruption to/from Liverpool Lime Street tonight due to a wall collapse bringing down part of the OHL (sorry about image size I cannot amend them)

Images from Network Rail Liverpool Lime St Twitter

 

[Elecman]

It's brought down the OLE as well, unlikely to be fully repaired for start of service tomorrow

 

[GW43125]

Bring on the wall!

On a more serious note, what's the procedure for dealing with this-are there any systems other than hope a driver can stop in time? Unless the wire hit the rails I wouldn't expect any signalling damage.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Bring on the wall!

On a more serious note, what's the procedure for dealing with this-are there any systems other than hope a driver can stop in time? Unless the wire hit the rails I wouldn't expect any signalling damage.

If it's a track circuit area and some of the debris is metallic then it's possible that it'd trigger the track circuits

 

[TimboM]

Bring on the wall!

On a more serious note, what's the procedure for dealing with this-are there any systems other than hope a driver can stop in time? Unless the wire hit the rails I wouldn't expect any signalling damage.

Given how many trains have hit landslips (which this isn't too dissimilar too) over the years, I think you've answered your own question.

Unless it's "lucky" enough to damage signalling you'd be relying on either seeing it in time, or another train crew (e.g. Going other way) seeing it and reporting [both likely on the approach to Lime St].

One point with this incident, though - the OHLE damage is likely to have tripped/shorted the wires out, setting off "alarms" at whichever Network Rail centre controls these wires, which may alert them to a problem. However, it'd probably take a little while to establish what exactly the issue is - which in a busy station throat like Lime St may not be quick enough.

 

[mikemcniven]

Wonder how long it will be disrupted for, Northern have said tomorrow WILL be affected, suppose they need to rebuild the wall, reconnect the OHL and sort out the trains as Liverpool Echo reporting A VT and Northern are near the scene

 

[DavidL]

Arrived at platform 2/3 (on foot) - I now realise - shortly after this had happened. The wires on 2 were bouncing about like crazy. The chaos to services began unfolding shortly afterwards - understandably. This was about 1730-40.

Apparently, there had been quite some flashing in the tunnel, though I didn't see that myself. I can quite imagine though, seeing those pictures. Interesting views, thanks for finding them!

Northern rail seemed to have an unusual degree of difficulty getting replacement buses sorted. First replacement bus (as far as I'm aware) to Wigan left Lime St at about 2020. Got home about 30 minutes ago!

 

[TimboM]

Arrived at platform 2/3 (on foot) - I now realise - shortly after this had happened. The wires on 2 were bouncing about like crazy. The chaos to services began unfolding shortly afterwards - understandably. This was about 1730-40.

Apparently, there had been quite some flashing in the tunnel, though I didn't see that myself. I can quite imagine though, seeing those pictures. Interesting views, thanks for finding them!

A friend was on the service immediately behind (or behind +1) and there was indeed significant sparkage.

After a long wait (1.5-2 hours) they were detrained under BTP supervision and walked back to Edge Hill.

 

[185143]

I've got an advance ticket for the 21:55 Liverpool-Birchwood. I've been bashing on a Saveaway and was at South Parkway at 20:00. Asked if my train was likely to run and told no chance-was told that passengers for Manchester were being sent via Crewe-asked if I could go via Manchester they said 'if you want!'

So I did! I'm not home yet though...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got an advance ticket for the 21:55 Liverpool-Birchwood. I've been bashing on a Saveaway and was at South Parkway at 20:00. Asked if my train was likely to run and told no chance

Surprising they don't turn them at South Parkway.

FWIW I saw a relatively minor OHLE short at Longbridge a while ago - the sparks were impressive and lit up the night sky (and the unit in the platform did the opposite...)

Fortunately running speeds in what I used to call "the streets" (there are street name signs for the streets above on the walls of those tunnels, which I always found intriguing) are very low so it's likely it would be seen in time. Not like the recent WCML landslip incident which was at some speed.

 

[mikemcniven]

Northern rail seemed to have an unusual degree of difficulty getting replacement buses sorted. First replacement bus (as far as I'm aware) to Wigan left Lime St at about 2020. Got home about 30 minutes ago!

For the whole rail replacement four TOC's would have been hunting for transport at the same time, so no wonder it took so long, BTP Manchester tweeted at 1928 that the first coaches had arrived at Piccadilly for Liverpool

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the whole rail replacement four TOC's would have been hunting for transport at the same time, so no wonder it took so long, BTP Manchester tweeted at 1928 that the first coaches had arrived at Piccadilly for Liverpool

Why on earth can't they turn trains short, say at South Parkway? Then Merseyrail provide the "rail replacement" from Central.

 

[mikemcniven]

Why on earth can't they turn trains short, say at South Parkway? Then Merseyrail provide the "rail replacement" from Central.

London Midland are doing just that

From National Rail
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/158800.aspx

The following alterations will apply:
- Virgin Trains will not run between Liverpool Lime Street and Runcorn
- TransPennine Express services will not run between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester
- London Midland services will not run between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway
- Northern services will not run between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester
- East Midlands Trains services will not run between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester
- Buses are operating between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester
- Buses are running between Liverpool Lime Street and Runcorn

Delays of up to 60 minutes, alterations and cancellations can be expected to journeys in the Liverpool Lime Street area

- London Midland customers may use Merseyrail services between Liverpool Central and Liverpool South Parkway and Virgin Trains on all reasonable routes. Customers with tickets dated for today can use services tomorrow.

- East Midlands Trains customers may use:
TransPennine Express on any reasonable route
Northern on any reasonable route
Virgin Trains between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston, for customers who have connections in London
London Midland between Liverpool South Parkway and Birmingham
Trains tomorrow where customers tickets are dated for today

- Northern customers are advised NOT to travel in the Liverpool and Merseyside areas. Where possible you should complete your journey using alternative road transport and obtain a receipt for the journey. Please contact the Northern customer experience centre to apply for a refund where appropriate.

- TransPennine Express customers may use:
East Midlands Trains services between Liverpool Lime Street / Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield
Northern services on any reasonable route

- Virgin Trains customers may use Merseyrail services between Liverpool Lime Street and Chester. Customers may also use London Midland on all reasonable routes.

 

[ainsworth74]

If it's a track circuit area and some of the debris is metallic then it's possible that it'd trigger the track circuits

Early reports that were sent out suggested that the issue actually was a signalling problem so it would seem quite possible that the track circuits were triggered by the debris and that was taken to be the problem before the rather more serious nature of it became apparent.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern passengers are being advised to take alternate public transport and claim back the reciept.

 

[fowler9]

It has been carnage. I was on the 17:33 London Midland service to Lime Street. We got to Edge Hill and as we entered the station I spotted a 319 stopped at the signal on Platform 2. A second or so later our brakes applied pretty sharpish. Not a normal stop at a red that was expected and after seeing the 319 stopped as well I thought "This isn't good". After a few minutes the guard announced a train was stuck in the tunnel and we were stuck behind it. After about 30 minutes the guard announced that he had no updates but he had spoken to control and anyone who wanted to could get out of the rear cab door at Edge Hill. I was right at the back and was first off after climbing over the drivers seat. Many followed. I decided that trying to get the train home from Lime Street would be carnage so decided to jump an 86 bus back to mine, turned out I made the right choice. That wall dropped about 100 feet on to the track down the cutting over the OHLE and both slow lines and I would be astounded if normal service is resumed at any time tomorrow.

 

[fowler9]

Regarding replacement buses. This happened right in the peak hour to every service leaving Lime Street and is still obviously a problem now. To be fair to the TOC's there can't be enough fleets of buses in existence to replace every single train out of Lime Street for an entire evening after being notified of a problem some time between 17:30 and 18:00.

 

[Domh245]

Why on earth can't they turn trains short, say at South Parkway? Then Merseyrail provide the "rail replacement" from Central.

Lack of capacity for turning at South Parkway? Although, would they not also be able to use Edge Hill as another turning point (and for trains coming from Huyton)

 

[sheff1]

Why on earth can't they turn trains short, say at South Parkway? Then Merseyrail provide the "rail replacement" from Central.

I don't know what turn back options the layout allows but, in an ideal world, you would have a Northern shuttle from Manchester to South Parkway as well as the London Midland service from the Crewe direction.

 

[rg177]

I was booked on the 2043 Leeds to Newcastle (1912 from Liverpool) and got to the station just as the 2033 to York left.

Ended up on the 2052 Northern to York which in itself failed at Church Fenton due to the brakes sticking, so we limped into York late and I'm now on the delayed 1730 King's Cross to Edinburgh. We've been further delayed due to an unscheduled crew change at Northallerton and the 1800 has long passed us.

Not my day!

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A pity Lime St Low Level is closed, otherwise Merseyrail to Chester and on to Crewe would be a useful alternative south.
From a train, the cutting's rock walls look extremely solid (large blocks of sandstone).
But there are some areas of brickwork in patches at various points.
Work may also be in progress relating to installation of the new track/signalling infrastructure (new gantries fixed to the walls etc).

 

[fowler9]

Lack of capacity for turning at South Parkway? Although, would they not also be able to use Edge Hill as another turning point (and for trains coming from Huyton)

Trains were stuck in Edge Hill station and I know someone who was stuck as far out as Newton Le Willows for 2 hours. Its a good plan if the train can get as far as Edge Hill or South Parkway.

 

[fowler9]

A pity Lime St Low Level is closed, otherwise Merseyrail to Chester and on to Crewe would be a useful alternative south.
From a train, the cutting's rock walls look extremely solid (large blocks of sandstone).
But there are some areas of brickwork in patches at various points.
Work may also be in progress relating to installation of the new track/signalling infrastructure (new gantries fixed to the walls etc).

I believe the wall that collapsed came right from the top and was very possibly not railway property at all. Apologies if I am wrong.

 

[TimboM]

Early reports that were sent out suggested that the issue actually was a signalling problem so it would seem quite possible that the track circuits were triggered by the debris and that was taken to be the problem before the rather more serious nature of it became apparent.

I would think the moment the wires hit the deck and earthed someone somewhere in Network Rail knew something wasn't right with the OHLE.

The Sutton Weaver electrocution RAIB report is worth a peruse with respect to damaged wires and how the Network Rail Electrical Control Operators (ECOs) and signallers interact in such circumstances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/436746/R072015_150624_Sutton_Weaver.pdf

 

[Elecman]

As soon as the OLE earths the respective feeding breaker will open and an alarm will sound in the Electric Control a Room (ECR) in this case Crewe. They will wait for a period of time then try and reclose the breaker twice more in case it's a transient fault that will or has cleared after 2 attempts they lack the breaker out and will call out the OLE gangs to inspect for damage/faults unless a driver reports anything in the mean time. So yes as soon as the OLe collapsed and shorted the ECR would have been aware.

 

[Elecman]

Network Rail now reporting via Twitter that lines could be closed for a few days, pending full examination tomorrow in daylight, but confirming collapse material is 3rd party wall and material.

 

[Quakkerillo]

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/836710874396098560 with bad news.

Quote added for those where the image doesn't load:

"Early indications suggest trains will not resume for several days while extensive clear-up and repairs take place to make the location safe."

 

[TimboM]

My (very reliable) friend on a Class 319 immediately behind the incident was told by a police officer as they were getting detrained that the wires had come down on a train in front of them. I see absolutely no mention of this in any news / social media reports or on here.

I'm guessing it may have been a misunderstanding/misinformation in the commotion of the incident (I know train drivers, police etc are sometimes the last to know what's going on as probably not able to use their personal mobiles on duty etc...)

Is anyone aware of any train being hit by the wires as they came down?

 

[Camden]

I see no mention of any of this incident in the news at all, let alone any details about it.

Very, very poor.

 

[TimboM]

I see no mention of any of this incident in the news at all, let alone any details about it.

Very, very poor.

Because it happened in Liverpool, not London/SE! It's being heavily reported on by local news outlets e.g. MEN and Liverpool Echo.