LNER app claiming journey is not operating when other apps show it as running

[TUC]

I have a ticket for Huddersfield to Hanborough, leaving 0340 this Thursday. It is a split ticket, with the splits at Manchester Piccadilly, Leamington Spa and Oxford (although the actual changes are at Brighouse (from a RRB), Piccadilly and Oxford.).

I wanted to check that it is still an RRB from Huddersfield and so (just as a random choice) searched for the journey on the LNER app. No journey at that time was showing, with the first one leaving 0626. I checked on Trainsplit (from where I had bought the ticket) and the journey shows OK, as did a search on Cross Country and on Northern. It appears to be just the LNER app where there is an issue.

I discovered that if, for example, I search on the LNER app for 0340 Huddersfield-Leamington Spa, it shows OK, even though these are the same trains. It is also not the RRB effect, as searching from Brighouse shows the same issue.

What could be causing the erroneous information?

 

[Benjwri]

I suspect it either doesn’t even think to ‘look’ at this itinerary, or it just isn’t showing itineraries which it can’t find a ticket for, as TPE hasn’t bothered to add an easement, so online journey planners don’t know about the diversion, and via Brighouse is not normally a permitted route between Huddersfield and Hanborough.

 

[TUC]

I suspect it either doesn’t even think to ‘look’ at this itinerary, or it just isn’t showing itineraries which it can’t find a ticket for, as TPE hasn’t bothered to add an easement, so online journey planners don’t know about the diversion, and via Brighouse is not normally a permitted route between Huddersfield and Hanborough.

Not sure it is that because a search for the Huddersfield-Manchester or Huddersfield-Leamington Spa legs (both of which still involve the RRB) will show that journey).

 

[Benjwri]

Not sure it is that because a search for the Huddersfield-Manchester or Huddersfield-Leamington Spa legs (both of which still involve the RRB) will show that journey).

The journey to Manchester is given on a via Hebden Bridge fare, so this is why that is valid. I can’t immediately see why the fare to Leamington is valid via Brighouse, but other journey planners find this to be valid on a through ticket to Leamington, but not to Hanborough.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not sure it is that because a search for the Huddersfield-Manchester or Huddersfield-Leamington Spa legs (both of which still involve the RRB) will show that journey).

Oxford and Leamington Spa are different routeing points and have different permitted routes:

Huddersfield Group to Leamington Spa:
GM+MW; SY+BP+MW; SY+MW; WK+MW; WK+SY+BP+MW; WY+MW.

Huddersfield Group to Oxford:
LONDON; RH; RL; TP+RM; WY+RL

So it looks like HUD-LMS is valid via Brighouse but HUD-OXF isn't.

 

[Benjwri]

Oxford and Leamington Spa are different routeing points and have different permitted routes:

Huddersfield Group to Leamington Spa:
GM+MW; SY+BP+MW; SY+MW; WK+MW; WK+SY+BP+MW; WY+MW.

Huddersfield Group to Oxford:
LONDON; RH; RL; TP+RM; WY+RL

So it looks like HUD-LMS is valid via Brighouse but HUD-OXF isn't.

Which of those maps for Leamington allows you to go from Huddersfield to Brighouse, then Manchester? I couldn’t see one?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which of those maps for Leamington allows you to go from Huddersfield to Brighouse, then Manchester? I couldn’t see one?

WK+MW would, as this includes Brighouse. The train would then operate directly from Brighouse to Manchester. I don't think the stopping service from Brighouse to Manchester Victoria would be valid because it doesn't go through Stalybridge.

There isn't a map for HUD-OXF that includes Brighouse, which is probably where the issue lies.

 

[Benjwri]

WK+MW would, as this includes Brighouse. The train would then operate directly from Brighouse to Manchester. I don't think the stopping service from Brighouse to Manchester Victoria would be valid because it doesn't go through Stalybridge.

There isn't a map for HUD-OXF that includes Brighouse, which is probably where the issue lies.

Just because it includes Brighouse doesn’t mean it’s allowed… You are starting at Huddersfield, you use the segment to Halifax Group to get to Brighouse and then Sowerby Bridge, which is a member of Halifax group, so you have now passed into it.

However how are you getting to Manchester? I don’t see a way to get to Manchester group, or a station on map MW, without doubling back through Huddersfield.

Any route also goes via Stalybridge, which the service doesn’t…

 

[Tetchytyke]

However how are you getting to Manchester? I don’t see a way to get to Manchester group, or a station on map MW, without doubling back through Huddersfield.

Happy to be corrected, but it seems to me that the train from Brighouse to Manchester being a direct non-stop train is an important point here.

It's worth noting that the itinerary referred to by the OP also shows on LNER if you put in Banbury as the destination, which has similar map combinations to Leamington Spa.

The issue seems to be that the maps for HUD-OXF provide no way to get to Brighouse in order to get that direct train to Manchester.

ETA: This must be the issue as Huddersfield to Manchester Group only has the permitted route map MR. This map also includes Brighouse and Halifax but does not include the line between Brighouse and Manchester Victoria via Rochdale. So if the planners weren't considering Brighouse-Manchester non-stop to be valid on this map then the RRB wouldn't show for Huddersfield-Manchester either.

 

[TUC]

Isn't the Brighouse element because of the RRB a bit of a smokescreen here? Tickets are offered for Huddersfield-Hanborough via Manchester Piccadilly on multiple other journeys on multiple other ticketing sites, thus strongly indicating it is a valid route. An RRB due to engineering work should not negate that validity, and should not result in the validity being determined from the diversion station linked to the RRB. It is surely the LNER app which is the issue, and not a routing guide question?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is surely the LNER app which is the isdue, and not a routing guide question?

It'll be how LNER is interpreting the data. I note that searching from Brighouse to Oxford on LNER also won't put you on that train to Piccadilly (the first journey is via York!), so I suspect the issue is how LNER's system is interpreting Brighouse.

Huddersfield-Manchester-Oxford would be valid on map TP on the normal route via Standedge, and it's only the very early trains which are via the RRB.

 

[MrJeeves]

I don't understand the issue here.

The splits mean that the journey planner considers each fare/segment covered by that fare individually.

If you search Huddersfield to Manchester Picc (the first split in the OP's post) on LNER's site (ignoring that they just don't let you pick a departure time between midnight at 4am???) then the 0340 journey shows fine.



The journey info shows a bus from Huddersfield (0340) to Brighouse (0355), then a train from Brighouse (0405) to Manchester Picc (0456).

Huddersfield to Manchester isn't permitted via this route, but the split routeing rule with a VIA HEBDEN BRIDGE fare comes into play and presumably makes the route valid, as @Benjwri says, but I don't have time to check right now.

LNER won't be showing itineraries without valid through fares available, so they won't show this itinerary on a through journey search.

 

[Haywain]

Isn't the Brighouse element because of the RRB a bit of a smokescreen here? Tickets are offered for Huddersfield-Hanborough via Manchester Piccadilly on multiple other journeys on multiple other ticketing sites, thus strongly indicating it is a valid route. An RRB due to engineering work should not negate that validity, and should not result in the validity being determined from the diversion station linked to the RRB. It is surely the LNER app which is the issue, and not a routing guide question?

It's worth noting that Trainsplit's app doesn't see any valid ticket if splits are turned off. That suggests that LNER and Trainsplit are in agreement that there is no valid through ticket price on that routeing.

 

[TUC]

I don't understand the issue here.

The splits mean that the journey planner considers each fare/segment covered by that fare individually.

If you search Huddersfield to Manchester Picc (the first split in the OP's post) on LNER's site (ignoring that they just don't let you pick a departure time between midnight at 4am???) then the 0340 journey shows fine.

View attachment 182543

The journey info shows a bus from Huddersfield (0340) to Brighouse (0355), then a train from Brighouse (0405) to Manchester Picc (0456).

Huddersfield to Manchester isn't permitted via this route, but the split routeing rule with a VIA HEBDEN BRIDGE fare comes into play and presumably makes the route valid, as @Benjwri says, but I don't have time to check right now.

LNER won't be showing itineraries without valid through fares available, so they won't show this itinerary on a through journey search.

The point is that validity of a through ticket for the overall Huddersfield-Hanborough journey is not dependent upon splits. See below, for example, all for a 'via Manchester Piccadilly' search on the Northern app.

The existence of an RRB should not reduce the types of ticket available to the passenger, certainly not in terms of flexible tickets.

 

[MrJeeves]

The existence of an RRB should not reduce the types of ticket available to the passenger, certainly not in terms of flexible tickets.

But it does. And that's the reality.

If we want to discuss TOCs not putting in place sufficient easements to permit journeys during engineering works, then that needs a new thread starting.

It's not really relevant to the OP's question, to which the answer is "the journey isn't permitted with a through ticket, which is why LNER isn't showing the itinerary". The journey planner's information isn't erroneous; the industry data is.

 

[TUC]

But it does. And that's the reality.

If we want to discuss TOCs not putting in place sufficient easements to permit journeys during engineering works, then that needs a new thread starting.

It's not really relevant to the OP's question, to which the answer is "the journey isn't permitted with a through ticket, which is why LNER isn't showing the itinerary". The journey planner's information isn't erroneous; the industry data is.

But other apps are showing the journey as valid with a through ticket. See attached.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'd imagine that's because Trainline interprets map easements incorrectly, and has been known to do so for years.

This easement will be applying: https://enrgbrowser.com/easements/701318/2025-06-23

And Trainline interprets it as leaving a mapped route at any node listed on the first bullet point as being a valid journey. Other journey planners require all map nodes off a mapped route to be listed.

 

[Benjwri]

Happy to be corrected, but it seems to me that the train from Brighouse to Manchester being a direct non-stop train is an important point here.

It's worth noting that the itinerary referred to by the OP also shows on LNER if you put in Banbury as the destination, which has similar map combinations to Leamington Spa.

The issue seems to be that the maps for HUD-OXF provide no way to get to Brighouse in order to get that direct train to Manchester.

ETA: This must be the issue as Huddersfield to Manchester Group only has the permitted route map MR. This map also includes Brighouse and Halifax but does not include the line between Brighouse and Manchester Victoria via Rochdale. So if the planners weren't considering Brighouse-Manchester non-stop to be valid on this map then the RRB wouldn't show for Huddersfield-Manchester either.

I agree it’s likely to do with the maps, I just can’t see how the Leamington maps allows travel to Manchester via Brighouse. The leg from Huddersfield towards Manchester goes via Stalybridge, which the train doesn’t.

I don't understand the issue here.

I think the issue it boils down now to is we don’t understand how Huddersfield to Leamington is valid on an Any Permitted through ticket, but Huddersfield to Hanborough isn’t, as I can’t see any mapped routes for either which allow travel via Brighouse.

 

[Haywain]

I agree it’s likely to do with the maps, I just can’t see how the Leamington maps allows travel to Manchester via Brighouse. The leg from Huddersfield towards Manchester goes via Stalybridge, which the train doesn’t.
I think the issue it boils down now to is we don’t understand how Huddersfield to Leamington is valid on an Any Permitted through ticket, but Huddersfield to Hanborough isn’t, as I can’t see any mapped routes for either which allow travel via Brighouse.

That's a different issue to the thread title though.

 

[Benjwri]

That's a different issue to the thread title though.

It’s a different issue to the title, but the OP asked why Leamington was valid but not Hanborough in their initial and later posts.