LNWR Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street December timing change

[trainophile]

Just looking at a journey in the week before Christmas, and the usual hourly **07 service from LIV to BHM seems to have been retimed to **33.

Is this a permanent change and does anyone know the reason for it?

 

[8A Rail]

The new winter timetable most likely until May 2023? This makes it 10 minutes before Avanti London train due to leave which are down as Class 807 EMU workings but it will remain Class 390 Pendolino's as far as I am aware. I suspect there will be a revised timetable before December to take account of this.

 

[py_megapixel]

I certainly hope it's a permanent change. It previously ran within a few minutes of the Avanti service from Crewe, leading to an incredibly uneven timetable between Crewe and Birmingham. The new timings are a massive improvement in this regard IMO.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yeah the times of the Lime St - New St services are changing in Dec tinetables

 

[trainophile]

Oh well that's good news then, it makes the hour long connection from Brum to Hereford only half an hour.

Just realised it's vastly improved in the opposite direction too (HFD-LIV). Only 26 minutes connection at BHM instead of the usual 55. At long last, a sensible timetable.

 

[507020]

The new timings are a massive improvement

At long last, a sensible timetable.

Sensible? Improvement? The Avanti service from Lime Street has also been retimed to depart at xx:43, 10 minutes after the LNWR at xx:33 which is slower due to the number of stops, with them departing Crewe 4 (YES A WHOLE 4) minutes apart at xx:19 and xx:23

And the Lime Street - Euston no longer calls at Stafford. An incredibly stupid timetable. I don’t know how much of an improvement 3tph will be when that comes.

It previously ran within a few minutes of the Avanti service from Crewe, leading to an incredibly uneven timetable

If within 4 and 10 minutes between Lime Street and Crewe, a 50-56 minute wait and no call at Stafford isn’t an incredibly uneven timetable, I don’t know what is. I’m not happy with this at all.

 

[Watershed]

It's simply switching to the opposite side of the hour as part of the December 22 WCML recast. The revised path allows for Avanti to run the long-vaunted second train per hour to Liverpool when (or if) they deign to do so, as well as for a potential reintroduction of the second hourly LNR Liverpool service.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It's simply switching to the opposite side of the hour as part of the December 22 WCML recast. The revised path allows for Avanti to run the long-vaunted second train per hour to Liverpool when (or if) they deign to do so, as well as for a potential reintroduction of the second hourly LNR Liverpool service.

I believe the 2nd LNR service is proposed for May 2023 but not confirmed yet

 

[MikeWM]

Some win and some lose from a change like this, but as someone who often is connecting to/from the Liverpool-Birmingham onto the Birmingham-Stansted/Cambridge XC, this is a rather annoying change - it means having to hang around New Street for an hour in both directions, as they will now arrive/depart pretty much simultaneously.

That's probably partly a relic of when this was a through service many years back, but you'd somewhat hope that this having been a through service that was then split, would mean maintaining this connection would get some sort of priority over others.

The connections at Nuneaton between the XC and the services going in a vague Liverpool direction are terrible too, which again many years ago was another reasonable way of making this journey.

At least we still have the through EMR service between Norwich and Liverpool - hopefully the proposal to split that has been delayed indefinitely now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At long last, a sensible timetable.

You say that, but think how many connecting services to destinations all over the UK run from New St - many of which are also hourly. Whether or not the Liverpool service is written to connect specifically with the Hereford train does not dictate whether the timetable is sensible or not.

 

[trainophile]

Sorry, appreciate I’m being a bit selfish there, and quite understand that it isn’t going to suit everyone.

If there’s enough complaints they may change it back!

 

[185]

.....it isn’t going to suit everyone.

I can see some very unhappy people when the Liverpool-Birminghams and the Crewe-Eustons change.

Eg -

Penkridge still gets two trains an hour woo! (now within 5 minutes of each other)

Stoke - Stafford, Stafford - Euston (was a 13 minute wait now a 48 minute wait)

Liverpool - Crewe, Crewe - Euston (was a 35 minute wait - now a 55 minute wait)

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

 

[JonathanH]

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

Might encourage passengers to trade up to the direct Avanti / CrossCountry services.

 

[py_megapixel]

Might encourage passengers to trade up to the direct Avanti / CrossCountry services.

If they could get XC sorted out between Manchester and Birmingham I'd stop going on about frequency from Crewe. As it stands it's 1tph and often a single Voyager, leading to overcrowding.

 

[Jack Hay]

Another change in the December timetable, and a welcome one, is an hourly service at Acton Bridge. But if the connections at Crewe onto the London trains are screwed up, that's going to reduce the passenger flows from the Cheshire stations on the LNR Liverpool service. Way back when, I used to use the peak hour expresses to London that called at Hartford station. I have never forgotten the evening 17.30 Euston to Liverpool, which I used regularly. After leaving Euston, amazingly, it was first stop Hartford, timetabled in 1hr 59 minutes. Can't achieve anything like that now. I usually drive to Crewe.

 

[507020]

It's simply switching to the opposite side of the hour as part of the December 22 WCML recast. The revised path allows for Avanti to run the long-vaunted second train per hour to Liverpool when (or if) they deign to do so, as well as for a potential reintroduction of the second hourly LNR Liverpool service.

If there is to be a 2nd Avanti service AND a 2nd LNWR service, surely the December LNWR service should run in the 2nd path, not the first, so as not to be within between 4 and 10 minutes of the Avanti service. I’m surprised 4tph can be pathed so easily at Weaver Junction, but in general I would prefer a Lime Street - Crewe all stops (Edge Hill, Mossley Hill, West Allerton, South Parkway, Runcorn, Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford) electric service and the Warrington and Birmingham services to be sped up.

Stoke - Stafford, Stafford - Euston (was a 13 minute wait now a 48 minute wait)

Liverpool - Crewe, Crewe - Euston (was a 35 minute wait - now a 55 minute wait)

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

Why would a single ticket be sold on any of these flows when Lime Street, Crewe, Stoke and Stafford all have much faster direct services to Euston?

I have never forgotten the evening 17.30 Euston to Liverpool, which I used regularly. After leaving Euston, amazingly, it was first stop Hartford, timetabled in 1hr 59 minutes.

Now this may be what we can call a sensible timetable. I assume it is also the reason Hartford doesn’t have short platforms.

 

[Kite159]

I can see some very unhappy people when the Liverpool-Birminghams and the Crewe-Eustons change.

Eg -

Penkridge still gets two trains an hour woo! (now within 5 minutes of each other)

Stoke - Stafford, Stafford - Euston (was a 13 minute wait now a 48 minute wait)

Liverpool - Crewe, Crewe - Euston (was a 35 minute wait - now a 55 minute wait)

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

Not just Liverpool - London for passengers using the LNR only fares (to avoid paying the Avanti premium) but the connection between Manchester - Crewe - London for passengers on TfW+LNR tickets is lost, now a 63/64 minute wait unless you get lucky to get across from P5 to P7.

 

[Techniquest]

Without looking, doesn't the timetable change make connecting out of trains from South Wales much less frustrating? That is, much less hanging around? Of course, there is less resilience and allowance for delays if the connection time is now much shorter. Potentially that's good news for me with the connection

The suggestion that at least one of the LNWR 350s should pick up many more stops, I don't agree with that. I'd possibly agree with peak time calls at Hunts Cross, to open up opportunities there, but calling at the likes of West Allerton on a Liverpool to Birmingham service doesn't feel right. Leave the calls to such small stations to the likes of Northern If we're going to add stops to the LNWR services, then both Hartford and Winsford should get calls twice an hour. That would be more useful than stopping at West Allerton and the like!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Without looking, doesn't the timetable change make connecting out of trains from South Wales much less frustrating? That is, much less hanging around? Of course, there is less resilience and allowance for delays if the connection time is now much shorter. Potentially that's good news for me with the connection

The suggestion that at least one of the LNWR 350s should pick up many more stops, I don't agree with that. I'd possibly agree with peak time calls at Hunts Cross, to open up opportunities there, but calling at the likes of West Allerton on a Liverpool to Birmingham service doesn't feel right. Leave the calls to such small stations to the likes of Northern If we're going to add stops to the LNWR services, then both Hartford and Winsford should get calls twice an hour. That would be more useful than stopping at West Allerton and the like!

There won't be stops at West allerton I'm sure. The ideal now would be 2tph Liv-Bhm, 1x 4 car all stops, 1x 8car semi fast (no UDS). Certainly busy enough for that most of the week

 

[ValleyLines142]

If they could get XC sorted out between Manchester and Birmingham I'd stop going on about frequency from Crewe. As it stands it's 1tph and often a single Voyager, leading to overcrowding.

It isn't??

The vast majority of Manchester to Birmingham services are double Voyagers, with the exception of the 1127 and (annoyingly at rush hour) the 1727*, which are currently both 4 car Voyagers, and few of the Bristol to Manchester services have also returned, which are also usually 4 car Voyagers but these are extras essentially.

* Thankfully the 1705 from Manchester has returned, albeit only as far as Bristol and not Cardiff but this is a 5 car.

Oh well that's good news then, it makes the hour long connection from Brum to Hereford only half an hour.

Just realised it's vastly improved in the opposite direction too (HFD-LIV). Only 26 minutes connection at BHM instead of the usual 55. At long last, a sensible timetable.

I imagine this will arrive into Birmingham at about xx:20 past the hour (xx:33 off Liverpool and usually about 1 hour 45 minutes), which isn't ideal for the hourly Bristol services (12 minutes past from New Street) but does connect nicely into the Cardiff trains (30 mins past).

How is it looking northbound? Cardiff to Nottinghams arrive at BHM at quarter to; Bristol to Edinburghs about ten minutes later? (at the moment the Liverpools leave Birmingham at 04 mins past).

 

[185]

Why would a single ticket be sold on any of these flows when Lime Street, Crewe, Stoke and Stafford all have much faster direct services to Euston?

Because it's just under a third of the price for an on-the-day ticket for a mildly slower train with no catering. Hence, the massive ticket sales at present.

 

[Techniquest]

There won't be stops at West allerton I'm sure. The ideal now would be 2tph Liv-Bhm, 1x 4 car all stops, 1x 8car semi fast (no UDS). Certainly busy enough for that most of the week

Fully agreed on that, even the 8 car trains can be difficult to get seats on at times. Certainly nice seats!

Because it's just under a third of the price for an on-the-day ticket for a mildly slower train with no catering. Hence, the massive ticket sales at present.

Quite so. Sometimes I go to Liverpool from Hereford via Birmingham purely because the Advances that way are much, much cheaper than going via Shrewsbury. It is much slower, granted, to go via Birmingham and in recent months the hour's wait in Birmingham has stopped me bothering.

Similar fare concept from my way to London, it is so much cheaper on LNWR only fares that it's crazy. As much as I'd love to go via Birmingham and connect into a 390, the fare difference is just too much. So I fully appreciate how those doing Liverpool to London on the slower trains must love their reasonably priced fares!

 

[frodshamfella]

It's simply switching to the opposite side of the hour as part of the December 22 WCML recast. The revised path allows for Avanti to run the long-vaunted second train per hour to Liverpool when (or if) they deign to do so, as well as for a potential reintroduction of the second hourly LNR Liverpool service.

All these are a long time coming to realisation , very frustrating.

Fully agreed on that, even the 8 car trains can be difficult to get seats on at times. Certainly nice seats!



Quite so. Sometimes I go to Liverpool from Hereford via Birmingham purely because the Advances that way are much, much cheaper than going via Shrewsbury. It is much slower, granted, to go via Birmingham and in recent months the hour's wait in Birmingham has stopped me bothering.

Similar fare concept from my way to London, it is so much cheaper on LNWR only fares that it's crazy. As much as I'd love to go via Birmingham and connect into a 390, the fare difference is just too much. So I fully appreciate how those doing Liverpool to London on the slower trains must love their reasonably priced fares!

I've used LNWR from Acton Bridge to London quite a bit of late, the fares on Avanti from Runcorn can be very high.

Another change in the December timetable, and a welcome one, is an hourly service at Acton Bridge. But if the connections at Crewe onto the London trains are screwed up, that's going to reduce the passenger flows from the Cheshire stations on the LNR Liverpool service. Way back when, I used to use the peak hour expresses to London that called at Hartford station. I have never forgotten the evening 17.30 Euston to Liverpool, which I used regularly. After leaving Euston, amazingly, it was first stop Hartford, timetabled in 1hr 59 minutes. Can't achieve anything like that now. I usually drive to Crewe.

I remember BR peak serves stopping at Hartford to and from Dustin. Many ICI employees used this.

 

[Watershed]

All these are a long time coming to realisation , very frustrating.

Indeed. The Midlands and NW has been hit particularly hard by service reductions and broken promises:

• Birmingham to Liverpool and Manchester both still just on 1tph vs 2tph pre-Covid
• Euston to Birmingham and Manchester on 1tph vs 3tph
• No Birmingham-Glasgow services
• Only a handful of Euston-Chester services vs 1tph
• Cross-City permanently reduced to an uneven 4tph vs clockface 6tph
• Birmingham-Shrewsbury 1tph vs 2tph
• Liverpool-Manchester fasts 1tph vs 2tph on both CLC and Chat Moss

And the list goes on. Now of course, passenger numbers haven't fully recovered to pre-Covid levels, so some reductions might be expected. But many of these involve frequencies being halved - even though passenger numbers are far higher than 50% of pre-Covid levels.

It's all very disappointing.

 

[frodshamfella]

Indeed. The Midlands and NW has been hit particularly hard by service reductions and broken promises:

• Birmingham to Liverpool and Manchester both still just on 1tph vs 2tph pre-Covid
• Euston to Birmingham and Manchester on 1tph vs 3tph
• No Birmingham-Glasgow services
• Only a handful of Euston-Chester services vs 1tph
• Cross-City permanently reduced to an uneven 4tph vs clockface 6tph
• Birmingham-Shrewsbury 1tph vs 2tph
• Liverpool-Manchester fasts 1tph vs 2tph on both CLC and Chat Moss

And the list goes on. Now of course, passenger numbers haven't fully recovered to pre-Covid levels, so some reductions might be expected. But many of these involve frequencies being halved - even though passenger numbers are far higher than 50% of pre-Covid levels.

It's all very disappointing.

Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn, still a Covid service, every 2 hours !

 

[Bald Rick]

Birmingham-Shrewsbury 1tph vs 2tph

To be fair, Birmingham - Shrewsbury is 2 tph, and 3tph in the peak (peak direction).

It very briefly went to 3tph off peak for about 12 weeks.

 

[Watershed]

To be fair, Birmingham - Shrewsbury is 2 tph, and 3tph in the peak (peak direction).

It very briefly went to 3tph off peak for about 12 weeks.

True. There are still plenty of others I didn't list though, such as Earlestown/Huyton to Liverpool, Hazel Grove and Buxton to Piccadilly, Atherton to Victoria...

Overall, this part of the country has borne the brunt of post-Covid service reductions.

 

[Bevan Price]

I can see some very unhappy people when the Liverpool-Birminghams and the Crewe-Eustons change.

Eg -

Penkridge still gets two trains an hour woo! (now within 5 minutes of each other)

Stoke - Stafford, Stafford - Euston (was a 13 minute wait now a 48 minute wait)

Liverpool - Crewe, Crewe - Euston (was a 35 minute wait - now a 55 minute wait)

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

Also connections from Liverpool for Crewe/Derby/Newark & Manchester/Crewe/Cardiff services become worse, with wait of around 50 minutes at Crewe off the Liverpool/Birmingham services.

 

[NewClee153]

I can see some very unhappy people when the Liverpool-Birminghams and the Crewe-Eustons change.

Eg -

Penkridge still gets two trains an hour woo! (now within 5 minutes of each other)

Stoke - Stafford, Stafford - Euston (was a 13 minute wait now a 48 minute wait)

Liverpool - Crewe, Crewe - Euston (was a 35 minute wait - now a 55 minute wait)

Many many tickets sold on these flows.

From a purely selfish point of view, I was hoping the recast would address the poorly spaced out services to New Street from Smethwick Galton Bridge, alas, xx:06 (stopper), xx:10 (ex-Liverpool), xx:36 (stopper), xx:44 (ex-Shrewsbury)

 

[185]

In terms of actual passenger numbers benefitting, it's perhaps less than 1% and from the Midlands area, causing the other 99% of passengers around the UK misery... not forgetting the large number of other Birmingham MS trains leaving from Galton Bridge's upstairs platforms.

The cynic in me believes those 1% often include railway managers wrangling the timetable for themselves - not for it's long suffering passengers.