London Buses Discussion

[PGAT]

That might be mirroring the 358 too much though

 

[Statto]

How about TFL transform the former X68 route to run all-day in both directions? It's quite an anomaly running peak flows only the way I see it.

SL6 (former X68) is a commuter route, although buses are often full by the time they get past West Norwood morning & Waterloo in the evening, not sure if theirs a market for an all day version of the route, although it's an anomaly such a commuter route operates in TFL land, main reason the SL6 operates is because of large sections of the route between Thornton Heath & West Norwood that are some distance from the nearest rail station, that it works as a peak commuter route, not sure if it would work as an all day route

Also remember over the non stop section of the SL6, drivers have a choice of a couple of routes, most drivers go via Brixton & Kennington, not sure that would be the case if it became an all day route, as they'd be demands for the route to stop in areas like Camberwell.

 

[90sWereBetter]

One route which really needs a frequency boost is the N9, every time I've seen one it's been full to bursting, which is not surprising given how useful it is for Heathrow shift workers. At present the frequency is every 30 minutes every night, but it could easily justify the sort of frequency the N25 and N29 have (every 10 minutes or better).

 

[PGAT]

I think any more stops on the SL6 would kill its appeal as an express route. It already stops at every stop south of West Norwood, so the long section between West Norwood and Waterloo is the main appeal, but having a stop in the middle would utterly destroy that, and would lock the route into only serving say Camberwell which causes a reliability risk. I’d say if there was high demand there, you’d be better off increasing the frequency of the 468

 

[talldave]

Express seems to be the more common term describing this type of bus route in the UK as it is more widely understood.

If that's the case, perhaps the ASA or Trading Standards would care to investigate the "waiting here for a short time to regulate the service" issue that makes them very much not express?

I think any more stops on the SL6 would kill its appeal as an express route. It already stops at every stop south of West Norwood, so the long section between West Norwood and Waterloo is the main appeal, but having a stop in the middle would utterly destroy that, and would lock the route into only serving say Camberwell which causes a reliability risk. I’d say if there was high demand there, you’d be better off increasing the frequency of the 468

The frustration is in seeing empty buses sailing past because the service is only one way at any one time.

 

[Statto]

One route which really needs a frequency boost is the N9, every time I've seen one it's been full to bursting, which is not surprising given how useful it is for Heathrow shift workers. At present the frequency is every 30 minutes every night, but it could easily justify the sort of frequency the N25 and N29 have (every 10 minutes or better).

Agreed, the N9 used to be every 20 minutes then TFL reduced the frequency to every 30 minutes a couple of years ago, first few buses are often full by the time they leave Heathrow, as last tubes to Central London are around 23.30, & planes are still arriving in at Heathrow until 1am, plus buses on the N9 are often full from Central London too, particularly from 3am onwards, N9 needs a frequency increase.

 

[Snow1964]

ComfortDelGro the parent of Metroline has secured funding of Sin$100m to purchase 135 electric buses for London

ComfortDelGro, a Singapore-based transport operator, has secured a S$100m ($73.47m) green loan from DBS to decarbonise its UK bus fleet.

The funds have been utilised to purchase 135 electric buses for Metroline, a wholly owned subsidiary of ComfortDelGro and a bus operator in London.

ComfortDelGro secures $73.47m loan from DBS to decarbonise UK fleet

ComfortDelGro, a Singapore-based transport operator, has secured a S$100m ($73.47m) green loan from DBS to decarbonise its UK bus fleet.

www.motorfinanceonline.com

 

[Busaholic]

My two cents on the proposed new Superloop routes.

North Greenwich to Thamesmead: Overkill, there are already 3 routes that traverse the NG to Woolwich corridor, and in the age of the Elizabeth line I find it hard to justify 3 routes covering this corridor, the 180 definitely didn’t need to have any changes since it’s now another 472, the 161 also isn’t needed west of Woolwich, if this express route goes ahead one route will definitely be axed and it’ll be the 472 most likely.

Eltham to Streatham: On paper looks good but let’s be honest such a route will have to use the South Circular Road which is rammed with traffic at the best of times, such a express route really wouldn’t be that much faster than a regular stopping route.

What TfL fails to understand is the demand for cross South London travel in the inner areas.

I’d rather a route that started at Thamesmead, then via Woolwich, Blackheath Sun in the Sands, A2 Road, Westhorne, Lewisham, Catford, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, then either onto Streatham or Brixton, this would ease the loads off the 54, 122 & 202 routes.

Another route could be one that parallels the 227/358 routes

I don't feel qualified to offer really up-to-date opinions, as I can no longer get to the city of my birth and first forty years, but I read very widely, look at videos etc and get 'gut' feelings about things, which doesn't make them right of course.

On that basis, and given my S.E. London background, I'd agree with all your observations. I'm willing to bet I'm the only member of this forum who's been on a direct scheduled bus between Tulse Hill and Eltham Green, on the old tram replacement route 186 while I was at primary school, but of course its use of the South Circular was almost confined to the Eltham Green to Woolwich section.Whether the proposed route uses more of it between Brixton Hill and Forest Hill, I don't know. As you say, the opportunity of 'express' working wouldn't be possible at many times.

I've always wanted a Streatham to Bromley direct link, particularly since the 227 got cut back to the latter permanently.

The 180 being taken away from Lewisham was one of the worst decisions that has ever been made on buses in the area!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't feel qualified to offer really up-to-date opinions, as I can no longer get to the city of my birth and first forty years, but I read very widely, look at videos etc and get 'gut' feelings about things, which doesn't make them right of course.

On that basis, and given my S.E. London background, I'd agree with all your observations. I'm willing to bet I'm the only member of this forum who's been on a direct scheduled bus between Tulse Hill and Eltham Green, on the old tram replacement route 186 while I was at primary school, but of course its use of the South Circular was almost confined to the Eltham Green to Woolwich section.Whether the proposed route uses more of it between Brixton Hill and Forest Hill, I don't know. As you say, the opportunity of 'express' working wouldn't be possible at many times.

I've always wanted a Streatham to Bromley direct link, particularly since the 227 got cut back to the latter permanently.

The 180 being taken away from Lewisham was one of the worst decisions that has ever been made on buses in the area!

I’d say you’re more than qualified to add your two cents after spending your first 40 years in London!

Yes the 186 did that weird route from Victoria to Slade Green via Vauxhall, Brixton, West Norwood, Crystal Palace then followed the old 122 route to Bexleyheath & Slade Green if I recall?

The 122/202 are the routes that use much of the eastern half of the South Circular and there is always disruption

A Orpington/Bromley to Streatham route would be useful, especially if it did start at Orpington and roughly followed both the 227 and 358 routes

That said I’m not adverse to another SE-SW route if it’s express, but I’d say it should follow the 54 route and only use some small section of the South Circular.

Yes the 180 is now basically the 472A, far be it that hordes of Erith commuters are flocking to North Greenwich, the majority of the 180 is a shuttle to Abbey Wood, basically half full to Woolwich and North Greenwich.

 

[Busaholic]

I’d say you’re more than qualified to add your two cents after spending your first 40 years in London!

Yes the 186 did that weird route from Victoria to Slade Green via Vauxhall, Brixton, West Norwood, Crystal Palace then followed the old 122 route to Bexleyheath & Slade Green if I recall?

The 122/202 are the routes that use much of the eastern half of the South Circular and there is always disruption

A Orpington/Bromley to Streatham route would be useful, especially if it did start at Orpington and roughly followed both the 227 and 358 routes

That said I’m not adverse to another SE-SW route if it’s express, but I’d say it should follow the 54 route and only use some small section of the South Circular.

Yes the 180 is now basically the 472A, far be it that hordes of Erith commuters are flocking to North Greenwich, the majority of the 180 is a shuttle to Abbey Wood, basically half full to Woolwich and North Greenwich.

Thank you for being so kind!

I don't think the 186 ever went east of Woolwich, General Gordon Place, with the 122/122A terminating at Woolwich, Earl of Chatham or Thomas Street. The 186 was very prone to disruption too, even though only one in three or four buses operated beyond Crystal Palace to Victoria. I used to stand at Eltham Green outside the long-gone Yorkshire Grey pub observing buses and the 21s and 182s, plus 160s, never seemed to have long gaps, but the 186s arriving from the Lewisham direction tended to arrive in threes, with at least one being turned short at the Green and occasionally one at Well Hall Roundabout too. The 186 had a complex garage allocation as I recall which hardly helped matters.

The 54 should never have been cut back from Croydon to Elmers End Green imo just because of Tramlink.

When the longer version of the Routemaster, the RML, was introduced the first route not serving Central London to get the higher capacity buses was the 37, and I remember it as being described as London Transport's most profitable route at the time, though I'm not sure hoe that would stand up to scrutiny. Despite that, L.T.'s appetite for more east to west routes in South London never appeared to be whetted, but inate conservatism probably accounts for that.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Thank you for being so kind!

I don't think the 186 ever went east of Woolwich, General Gordon Place, with the 122/122A terminating at Woolwich, Earl of Chatham or Thomas Street. The 186 was very prone to disruption too, even though only one in three or four buses operated beyond Crystal Palace to Victoria. I used to stand at Eltham Green outside the long-gone Yorkshire Grey pub observing buses and the 21s and 182s, plus 160s, never seemed to have long gaps, but the 186s arriving from the Lewisham direction tended to arrive in threes, with at least one being turned short at the Green and occasionally one at Well Hall Roundabout too. The 186 had a complex garage allocation as I recall which hardly helped matters.

The 54 should never have been cut back from Croydon to Elmers End Green imo just because of Tramlink.

When the longer version of the Routemaster, the RML, was introduced the first route not serving Central London to get the higher capacity buses was the 37, and I remember it as being described as London Transport's most profitable route at the time, though I'm not sure hoe that would stand up to scrutiny. Despite that, L.T.'s appetite for more east to west routes in South London never appeared to be whetted, but inate conservatism probably accounts for that.

The 37 was a mammoth of a route, can still be done by two changes, 37/337/H37 and I’m suprised that the links still exist.

It’s bizarre that cross South London routes have basically been cut, aside from the 37 & P4 no other route traverses SE to SW London to my knowledge.

The 54 being cut back is still talked about today nearly 25 years after it happened, especially since routes like the 122 which is more difficult to operate still runs a lengthy distance.

I’ll probably add my two cents to the consultation when it happens and suggest a Thamesmead to Clapham route

 

[Snow1964]

The 37 was a mammoth of a route, can still be done by two changes, 37/337/H37 and I’m suprised that the links still exist.

It’s bizarre that cross South London routes have basically been cut

There used to be some very long cross London Routes, eg route 27 Hounslow-Muswell Hill, got shortened to Archway, but at one time also had summer Sunday extension to Hampton Court.

The 65 is another formerly long route, it used to run from North Ealing (Argyle Road) to Leatherhead. Can still do roughly that journey using E2, 65, 465.

Like the 37/337/H37 buses, mentioned above, these have slightly different routing to the old through buses

 

[johncrossley]

The 54 being cut back is still talked about today nearly 25 years after it happened, especially since routes like the 122 which is more difficult to operate still runs a lengthy distance.

If the tram was there from the beginning, nobody would say "why don't they extend the 54 to Croydon?"

 

[Edvid]

Arriva took a big hit in Wednesday's tender results with three of their Dartford-based routes moving to Go-Ahead in Bexleyheath. The 65/N65 is staying with RATP as expected, though the PVR is still to be announced (possibly in connection with the Superloop 2 proposals).

LOTS extract below

Wednesday 24 April

LBSL intends to enter into new contracts for the following routes with the operators listed below:

Route	Current Operator	New Operator	PVR​	Vehicles
65/N65	London United	London United	tba​	Existing electric double deck*
99	Arriva London North	London Central	14​	New electric double deck
141	Arriva London North	Arriva London North	28​	New electric double deck
269	Arriva London North	London Central	13​	New electric double deck
401	Arriva London North	London Central	8​	New electric double deck
W4	Arriva London North	Arriva London North	14​	Existing diesel single deck

* Certain journeys on route N65 will continue to be operated by hybrid vehicles.
New electric vehicles may enter service after the contract start date, dependent on infrastructure and/or vehicle delivery timescales. The diesel and hybrid vehicles detailed above will meet Euro VI emissions standards.

The start and end dates for the above contracts are detailed in the following table:

Route	Contract Start Date​	Contract End Date​
65/N65	6th July 2024​	2nd July 2027​
99	18th January 2025​	16th January 2032​
141	11th January 2025​	9th January 2032​
269	18th January 2025​	16th January 2032​
401	18th January 2025​	16th January 2032​
W4	1st February 2025​	1st February 2030​

 

[MotCO]

An increased in PVR for Go-Ahead of 35 - where will they be based? Is there room at Bexleyheath? Or is the new base for Fasttrack going to be used for some of these routes, or some switched out of Bexleyheath?

 

[dodecahedron67]

An increased in PVR for Go-Ahead of 35 - where will they be based? Is there room at Bexleyheath? Or is the new base for Fasttrack going to be used for some of these routes, or some switched out of Bexleyheath?

269, whilst not ideal, could be run from Orpington MB?

 

[MotCO]

269, whilst not ideal, could be run from Orpington MB?

Metrobus moved the 51 to Bexleyheath to make room for the 208 when they won it from Stagecoach. Not sure if there would be any room at Orpington or rhe 269 - I don't recall any contract losses since.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Metrobus moved the 51 to Bexleyheath to make room for the 208 when they won it from Stagecoach. Not sure if there would be any room at Orpington or rhe 269 - I don't recall any contract losses since.

Could be a cascade with the 119 moving to Croydon, 269s to MB? I’m very much clutching at straws though

 

[galwhv69]

An increased in PVR for Go-Ahead of 35 - where will they be based? Is there room at Bexleyheath? Or is the new base for Fasttrack going to be used for some of these routes, or some switched out of Bexleyheath?

Was told by someone who works at Go Ahead that the 244 and another route (can't remember which one he said) will move to MG

 

[Busaholic]

If the tram was there from the beginning, nobody would say "why don't they extend the 54 to Croydon?"

The 54 would never have been put into place as a Woolwich to Elmers End route all those years ago, the latter being, with all due respects to its residents now or then, a nothing sort of place. People would have clamoured for the obvious extension to Croydon.

 

[johncrossley]

The 54 would never have been put into place as a Woolwich to Elmers End route all those years ago, the latter being, with all due respects to its residents now or then, a nothing sort of place. People would have clamoured for the obvious extension to Croydon.

Elmers End is the end of a tram line, plus there is also a railway station there, so is clearly an obvious place for connections.

You only think it is obvious as you remember that as its historical route. If they've got money to spend on route enhancements they would surely be more likely to spend that somewhere where there isn't a tram route. Not only is there a tram, there is also the 289.