London - Crowthorne, departing in morning peak and returning off-peak, with possible London travel afterwards

[miklcct]

I'll go to Crowthorne for a race on the coming Thursday, which is a weekday. I hope to get there on the 09:20 departure from Reading arriving 09:35, therefore I will have to start my journey in the morning peak.

My plan is to cycle to Paddington along the exact route of the bus 332, which is likely to be faster than the bus, and park my bike inside the station, then take a high speed train to Reading. After the race, I may go to north east London later on the day, most likely Hackney or Stratford, which I don't have exact plan yet, before returning home. I have a 26-30 Railcard and Oyster cards with the discount loaded.

Entering London to Crowthorne return into a retailer gets me an Off-Peak Day Return at £17.15, priced by GWR with restriction J9 which isn't valid before 09:20, but the restriction is lifted between Christmas and Sunday. I have then tried a few different stations in London and got some fares, set by South Western Railway, which undercuts the GWR fare, for example, an Anytime Day Return from Hackney Downs, routed + any permitted at £15.55, or an Anytime Day Return from Stratford, routed + any permitted at £16.85.

Here are my questions:
1. Are there any tickets which allows a day return from Paddington to Crowthorne, with the outward in the morning peak, and the return off-peak, which are cheaper than the Hackney Downs - Crowthorne + any permitted Anytime Day Return mentioned above?

2. The price is different between using Hackney Central and Hackney Downs as the origin, however, these two stations are effectively two parts of one station linked by a corridor in the paid area. Do these tickets have identical validity as the result?

3. There are some tickets between north east London and Crowthorne which are routed not via London, and they don't have a + marker. The only route I can think of using these tickets is to travel to Clapham Junction using London Overground services, and South Western Railway from there. Are there other possible routes as well?

Thanks for answering.

 

[Haywain]

Is London to Crowthorne valid via Reading?

 

[JonathanH]

Is London to Crowthorne valid via Reading?

Two sets of fares from London Terminals, one routed Ascot / Guildford priced by SWR that isn't valid via Reading and one routed Any Permitted priced by GWR that is valid via Reading.

Not convinced the Hackney Downs / Hackney Central to Crowthorne fares are valid via Reading, as they massively undercut the relevant fares from Hackney Downs / Hackney Central to Reading so should fail a fares check. However, Reading isn't the routeing point for Crowthorne. Wokingham is.

3. There are some tickets between north east London and Crowthorne which are routed not via London, and they don't have a + marker. The only route I can think of using these tickets is to travel to Clapham Junction using London Overground services, and South Western Railway from there. Are there other possible routes as well?

Via Kew Gardens to Richmond to change for Wokingham as well.

 

[Haywain]

Two sets of fares from London Terminals, one routed Ascot / Guildford priced by SWR that isn't valid via Reading and one routed Any Permitted priced by GWR that is valid via Reading.

There are plenty of cases of tickets routed Any Permitted not giving any advantage over a ticket routed via a specific location so the question is valid.

 

[JonathanH]

There are plenty of cases of tickets routed Any Permitted not giving any advantage over a ticket routed via a specific location so the question is valid.

Indeed.

However, GWR's booking engine will sell Any Permitted Paddington to Crowthorne tickets via Reading. It won't sell Hackney Central / Hackney Downs to Crowthorne tickets via that route.

Could someone in theory buy a London Terminals to Crowthorne Any Permitted ticket and over distance excess it to a Hackney Downs to Crowthorne + Any Permitted return for the journey back? (I don't know.)

 

[miklcct]

Not convinced the Hackney Downs / Hackney Central to Crowthorne fares are valid via Reading, as they massively undercut the relevant fares from Hackney Downs / Hackney Central to Reading so should fail a fares check. However, Reading isn't the routeing point for Crowthorne. Wokingham is.

The fare is any permitted, there is a mapped route from Hackney Downs to Wokingham via Reading, Wokingham passes the fare check for Hackney Downs - Crowthorne, and also there is a positive easement specifically allowing travel via Wokingham if travelling to Crowthorne via Reading.

The fare can also be validated using a retailer as well. Trainsplit will sell me a ticket at £15.55 by entering Hackney Downs - Crowthorne via Paddington.

 

[Alex365Dash]

However, GWR's booking engine will sell Any Permitted Paddington to Crowthorne tickets via Reading. It won't sell Hackney Central / Hackney Downs to Crowthorne tickets via that route.

Having a closer look, Hackney Central to Crowthorne fails the fares check for Wokingham Routeing Point (I don't believe easement 700371 is applicable?) but Wokingham passes the fares check for Hackney Downs to Crowthorne. For Hackney Downs to Wokingham Routeing Points (for all practical purposes London Group to Wokingham since the former only has LONDON as a mapped route and Hackney to London isn't really relevant here), travel via Reading from London is permitted.

GWR will offer an itinerary on Thursday 19th January but not on Thursday 29th December as there's engineering works via Hackney Downs this week.

 

[miklcct]

I have bought the ticket from Whitechapel at the same price with an itinerary via Paddington and Reading. I tried using Dalston Junction as the origin but Trainsplit could only produce two tickets for the same itinerary with an Overground leg on top.

If I want to go to Hackney I will cycle from Whitechapel as the line through London Fields is closed. If I want to go to Stratford I'll exit and reenter using Oyster which is still cheaper than a through ticket from Stratford.

Can anyone explain why this is route permitted? Is it the shortest route wholly by rail?

It definitely isn't a mapped route as the only possible origin routing point which passes the fare check is Surrey Quays, and the only possible destination routing point which passes the fare check is Guildford (although there is an easement related to Wokingham but I don't exactly understand it's meaning here), and the only mapped route from Surrey Quays to both Guildford and Wokingham is via London and all the mapped routes from Surrey Quays to London don't include a direct link (the only possible choices are via New Cross, New Cross Gate or Highbury & Islington) so I won't use a mapped route to go between London and Whitechapel.

 

[JB_B]

...
Can anyone explain why this is route permitted? Is it the shortest route wholly by rail?

It definitely isn't a mapped route as the only possible origin routing point which passes the fare check is Surrey Quays, and the only possible destination routing point which passes the fare check is Guildford (although there is an easement related to Wokingham but I don't exactly understand it's meaning here), and the only mapped route from Surrey Quays to both Guildford and Wokingham is via London and all the mapped routes from Surrey Quays to London don't include a direct link (the only possible choices are via New Cross, New Cross Gate or Highbury & Islington) so I won't use a mapped route to go between London and Whitechapel.

I think the code for easement 700371 (700862/3 in the data) means that you treat Wokingham as passing the fares check as a destination routeing point for journeys to Crowthorne via Reading. So you have a mapped route from London to Crowthorne via Reading, Wokingham on map combination RG+WV.

 

[miklcct]

I think the code for easement 700371 (700862/3 in the data) means that you treat Wokingham as passing the fares check as a destination routeing point for journeys to Crowthorne via Reading. So you have a mapped route from London to Crowthorne via Reading, Wokingham on map combination RG+WV.

Thank you for this explanation, but this still doesn't explain the direct route between Whitechapel and London which doesn't exist as a mapped route.

This fare can be issued from Hackney Downs as well (transferring at Liverpool Street to cross London) but not from Dalston Junction (transferring at Whitechapel to cross London via Liverpool Street).

P.S. I have completed the journey. I collected the ticket at Paddington and started short there, took a high-speed train to Reading to change to a regional train to Crowthorne. I used the same route on returning, and transferred to Elizabeth line at Paddington to Whitechapel.

There weren't any difficulties in using the ticket. It operated all the barriers en-route, including Paddington (Network Rail), Paddington (Elizabeth line) and Whitechapel. Surprisingly the barrier at Whitechapel returned the ticket despite that it no longer had further validity.