London Fare System - can we get rid of the zones?

[WideRanger]

Now that virtually all journeys in London (apart from those that are part of a National Rail ticket) are done using Oyster or other contactless cards, has the reason for having the simplicity of the fare zones gone? And if so, could this be the time to make the fare structure in London fairer? The price of a ticket from my local station to the next one along is the same as if I went to the other side of London while carefully avoiding Zone 1. While that approach has been effective to reduce the number of journeys through the centre, it doesn't really reduce my incentive to travel rather vast distances within London. At the same time, the separation of bus and tube fares means that I am incentivised to take a rather longer journey that keeps me on just one mode of transport, when the more sensible thing would be a shorter journey using both modes.

London is clearly too large to have a flat rate fare zone (unlike the central area of Paris, for example). But I wonder whether it is time to explore a fairer fare system. Perhaps it could include:

• Tube, DLR and Tram Base fares connected to distance - to be really radical, distance as the crow flies rather than distance on track, to avoid penalising people wanting to take journeys between places that happen to be on different lines)
• A supplement for journeys that enter a higher-fare zone, for example the area bounded by the circle line and stations close by (e.g. Marylebone). Also a peak time supplement (either on the whole system or part of the system)
• Free or discounted add-on journeys on buses where connected to a Tube, DLR or Tram journey.

Doing this would allow the price to be reduced on some short journeys, but increased on very long journeys. And it would remove a lot of the arguments about which zone a station should be in. It would also encourage more to think of making their entire journey on public transport, rather than driving to the station and then getting the tube.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Free or discounted add-on journeys on buses where connected to a Tube, DLR or Tram journey.

If we kept zones, the answer to this to me is just to have a true joint tariff, i.e. contiguous single journeys are priced regardless of mode or combination of modes, even if you still had a "bus only" version to reduce Tube loadings.

I do agree that paying substantially more because you don't have a local Tube station and thus need a bus as well as both silly and unfair (and regressive, because housing away from Tube stations is cheaper and so poorer people will pay more).

 

[telstarbox]

If you're doing a bus + Tube (or Tube + bus) return journey you will generally hit the Tube cap for the relevant zones so the bus doesn't actually cost any more.

The National Rail fares within the zones are a mess though:

Crayford (Z6) to New Cross (Z2) is £4.60 peak or £3.20 off peak using Southeastern
Epping (Z6) to Mile End (Z2) is only £3 peak or £1.70 off peak using the Central line.

 

[JonathanH]

The National Rail fares within the zones are a mess though:

A mess or just more expensive than the TfL fares reflecting a different cost base and level of patronage? Presumably the people who set the fares couldn't justify reducing them to the TfL level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A mess or just more expensive than the TfL fares reflecting a different cost base and level of patronage? Presumably the people who set the fares couldn't justify reducing them to the TfL level.

The idea of a joint tariff is that everything costs the same (varying only by distance, either precisely or crudely by way of zones) - simple and fair.

 

[JonathanH]

The idea of a joint tariff is that everything costs the same (varying only by distance, either precisely or crudely by way of zones) - simple and fair.

Right, but that is going to involve a cross subsidy between users that doesn't currently exist. If there wasn't some structural need for rail fares to be more expensive than underground fares, there would be closer alignment. Even TfL don't charge underground fares on some of the routes they have acquired.

I think a zonal map closer to the boroughs or parliamentary constituencies would allow some changes in fares and be fairer to those who make multiple journeys in outer London without going into the centre while also charging a more appropriate amount for long journeys in the suburbs. The current structure assumes travel into zone 1 for capping purposes which is a bit unreasonable.

 

[XAM2175]

If we kept zones, the answer to this to me is just to have a true joint tariff, i.e. contiguous single journeys are priced regardless of mode or combination of modes, even if you still had a "bus only" version to reduce Tube loadings.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[WideRanger]

If you're doing a bus + Tube (or Tube + bus) return journey you will generally hit the Tube cap for the relevant zones so the bus doesn't actually cost any more.

The daily cap for zones 1-4 is £10.60, which is a lot higher than you might expect.

A single bus fare is £1.55

An offpeak tube fare for Zones 2-4 is £1.70 (off peak) or £2.50 (peak)

So even if you travel at peak times, you won't hit the cap on a return journey using both modes, unless your journey goes into Zone 1.

Even if you go into Zone 1 (apart from at Peak times), you won't hit the tube cap with a return journey off-peak.

To hit the daily cap on tube fares alone (and therefore the bus doesn't actually cost any more), you have to make the following journeys:

• Peak, Zone 1-4: 3 journeys
• Offpeak, Zone 1-4: 5 journeys
• Peak, Zone 2-4: 5 journeys
• Offpeak, Zone 2-4: 7 journeys

 

[Snow1964]

The fare zone system certainly contained to many oddities to be fair.

As an example, the line outwards from Wimbledon (zone 3, 7.25 miles from Waterloo), then get Raynes Park (8.6 miles from Waterloo), New Malden (9.8 miles), are both in zone 4, but within next 2.3 miles get Berrylands & Norbiton (zone 5), and Surbiton & Kingston (both zone 6).

So can travel under 5 miles and need 4 different zones, but other journeys can be much more than 5 miles and stay in same zone.

The zonal system might have made sense to simplify tickets at a time when many were bought from electro-mechanical vending machines, but is rather bonkers in era of electronic smart card pricing where there are entrance and exit readers able to charge a sensible fare.

 

[stevetay3]

Before good old Ken Livingstone brought in his fairer fares scheme or whatever he called it, single short journeys in central London were getting very expensive, be careful what you wish for.

 

[Wolfie]

The idea of a joint tariff is that everything costs the same (varying only by distance, either precisely or crudely by way of zones) - simple and fair.

True enough. However, given that the Mayor of London has zero control over National Rail fares in the London area and the fact that the current state of rail industry finances means that there is zero chance of HMT agreeing anything that reduces fare revenue, there is pretty much zero chance of that happening. Certainly to have any chance of it doing so it is likely that tube fares would go up sharply which would cause a massive backlash.

I would love to know how many of those opining actually live and/or work in London....

 

[Aictos]

Or instead of having Zones 1 to 9, you could follow the Germanic approach and simply have 3 to 4 zones eg Zone A to C as they do in Berlin.

Far easier to understand and far more simpler which you could roll out in London, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Birmingham etc

 

[WideRanger]

True enough. However, given that the Mayor of London has zero control over National Rail fares in the London area and the fact that the current state of rail industry finances means that there is zero chance of HMT agreeing anything that reduces fare revenue, there is pretty much zero chance of that happening. Certainly to have any chance of it doing so it is likely that tube fares would go up sharply which would cause a massive backlash.

I would love to know how many of those opining actually live and/or work in London....

I live in London. And I'm very aware, and grateful, that our public transport is significantly cheaper than many places.

I guess I have mentally assumed that there is going to be increasing pressure to ensure that the system requires as little subsidy as possible - and that is likely to include some fare rises whatever happens. So my thinking was that if pain is coming, then the best thing is to make sure that there are as few distortions in the system as possible. Because that would give the planners the best possible chance of designing the system to be as efficient as possible, and therefore limiting the operating cost, and pain for users of the system.

 

[cle]

Zones make some sense, but they could definitely consolidate them a little more.
Z-1-3 is an inner zone, zone 4+ an outer zone. A bit like Melbourne. Mode agnostic between NR/TfL/Bus - and buses free with a transfer (within 15 mins of a tap out), as a change in line would be. Maybe the ability to tap at the bus stop if the bus isn't arriving!

But yes, integrated and simplified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The challenge with bus is that they aren't provided with a means of tapping out and adding it would cost a lot both in terms of the physical kit and in terms of slower operation. However, you could still make it work alongside a zonal system by making a bus journey starting say one hour before a Tube journey free with the Tube journey.

 

[Wolfie]

Zones make some sense, but they could definitely consolidate them a little more.
Z-1-3 is an inner zone, zone 4+ an outer zone. A bit like Melbourne. Mode agnostic between NR/TfL/Bus - and buses free with a transfer (within 15 mins of a tap out), as a change in line would be. Maybe the ability to tap at the bus stop if the bus isn't arriving!

But yes, integrated and simplified.

If you consolidate into fewer larger zones those making journeys within current zones will, particularly for those journeys in current zones 2 or 3 but now in your proposed inner zone, take a massive financial hit. Not to mention the current pricing structure is intended to minimise unnecessary travel into or through zone 1. Your proposal removes the financial disincentive and likely would result in much more as a result.

 

[jfollows]

I remember when the zones were introduced, they replaced an unfathomable fare system which appeared to be akin to the current BR fares system. The zones immediately made the fare system comprehensible and sensible. Of course the starting point for the fares was unsustainably low, but it drove what we have today.

The one thing I remember was originally there were two central zones, with an overlap. I had a season ticket from Ravenscourt Park to South Kensington, which got me to the western zone, but when I had choir rehearsals up Ludgate Hill I would take the tube to Temple and walk the rest of the way - Temple was the last stop in the overlap between the two central zones, and I didn't expect Cheshire County Council to pay more for my commute to university than they needed to. I'm glad this overlap was removed in due course.

 

[cle]

If you consolidate into fewer larger zones those making journeys within current zones will, particularly for those journeys in current zones 2 or 3 but now in your proposed inner zone, take a massive financial hit. Not to mention the current pricing structure is intended to minimise unnecessary travel into or through zone 1. Your proposal removes the financial disincentive and likely would result in much more as a result.

I don't think there are that many logical journeys where the fare difference is that apparent - that avoiding Z1 would save a lot. Generally people choose convenience and especially now that cards/phones are tapped, a 'balance' is irrelevant and I think it's sadly less conscious.

There might be some but I think fairly fringe. Double-backing at London Bridge maybe? The ELL has Shoreditch in Z1 which kills this notion already. DLR is all zone 2 basically, as is the WLL and NLL. Maybe Thameslink might be used in this way a bit more, but to be honest, it should be, and touted more inner as an alt tube service - it has capacity, especially off peak.

I can't think of too many other examples. South to North via Vic line? That's a time crunch. Most people today going from Clapham Junction to Finsbury Park, for example - would go via Victoria for speed, I would think (v.s. via H&I either direction)

 

[SynthD]

A mess or just more expensive than the TfL fares reflecting a different cost base and level of patronage? Presumably the people who set the fares couldn't justify reducing them to the TfL level.

They were running it for a profit, rather than TfL and predecessors running it as a self funding service? It still can’t be justified to fix it.
I don’t like the changes suggested. You could improve the placements of the zones to be more circular around the non-circular central area, but even that would require considerable changes to each TOCs fare scheme.

 

[geordieblue]

Or instead of having Zones 1 to 9, you could follow the Germanic approach and simply have 3 to 4 zones eg Zone A to C as they do in Berlin.

Far easier to understand and far more simpler which you could roll out in London, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Birmingham etc

There are already three fare zones in Newcastle on the Metro (not on buses, though, which have their own ticketing system)

 

[CyrusWuff]

The National Rail fares within the zones are a mess though:

Crayford (Z6) to New Cross (Z2) is £4.60 peak or £3.20 off peak using Southeastern
Epping (Z6) to Mile End (Z2) is only £3 peak or £1.70 off peak using the Central line.

Thanks to the Northern Line Extension being in Zone 1 to appease the developers, you'll shortly have the following situation:

Clapham North (Z2) to Vauxhall (Z1/2) via Stockwell and then a half mile walk to Nine Elms is £1.70 Peak or £1.50 Off-Peak
Clapham High Street (Z2) to Vauxhall NR (Z1/2) via Clapham Junction and then a half mile walk to Nine Elms is £2.50 Peak or £2.30 Off-Peak
Clapham North (Z2) to Nine Elms (Z1) via Kennington is £3.00 Peak or £2.50 Off-Peak

Oops.

 

[Mikey C]

I've thought it a bit annoying that there are no separate Oyster/Contactless caps for non Zone 1 travel. If you don't go into Zone 1, you have little chance of reaching the Cap

 

[JonathanH]

I've thought it a bit annoying that there are no separate Oyster/Contactless caps for non Zone 1 travel. If you don't go into Zone 1, you have little chance of reaching the Cap

Yes, that is what I have been trying to get at with the idea of having more zones. If there were concentric zones around Croydon for example then there could be a Croydon area cap, likewise Sutton, Kingston, Wimbledon, Heathrow etc.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, that is what I have been trying to get at with the idea of having more zones. If there were concentric zones around Croydon for example then there could be a Croydon area cap, likewise Sutton, Kingston, Wimbledon, Heathrow etc.

Which would doubtless cost TfL shedloads unless of course longer journeys are hammered pricewise. The latter completely undermines the concept of London as a single city. Your logical fallacy is to assume that facilities are borough specific. They just aren't!

Thanks to the Northern Line Extension being in Zone 1 to appease the developers, you'll shortly have the following situation:

Clapham North (Z2) to Vauxhall (Z1/2) via Stockwell and then a half mile walk to Nine Elms is £1.70 Peak or £1.50 Off-Peak
Clapham High Street (Z2) to Vauxhall NR (Z1/2) via Clapham Junction and then a half mile walk to Nine Elms is £2.50 Peak or £2.30 Off-Peak
Clapham North (Z2) to Nine Elms (Z1) via Kennington is £3.00 Peak or £2.50 Off-Peak

Oops.

That is just silly

 

[JonathanH]

Which would doubtless cost TfL shedloads unless of course longer journeys are hammered pricewise. The latter completely undermines the concept of London as a single city. Your logical fallacy is to assume that facilities are borough specific. They just aren't!

Yes, under this idea longer peripheral journeys currently in one zone would be hammered pricewise but people staying in one area might pay less.

That is just silly

It would be interesting to know whether ultimately the placement of Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station in Zone 1 ends up being revenue generative or not for when people travel to other zones or whether they just walk to the nearby zone 2 stations.

 

[WideRanger]

I don't understand why Zones is a useful concept anymore, given that the ticketing system can now easily cope with a more representative range of fares. So why would you want to make more zones?

 

[JonathanH]

I don't understand why Zones is a useful concept anymore, given that the ticketing system can now easily cope with a more representative range of fares. So why would you want to make more zones?

Zones are the facility which allows fares capping. I agree that a zonal point to point fare structure could be withdrawn in favour of individual prices between different destinations but if some form of capping is appropriate (and perhaps it may not be to TfL in the future given their funding shortfall) then some form of zone structure is needed.

 

[Wolfie]

Zones are the facility which allows fares capping. I agree that a zonal point to point fare structure could be withdrawn in favour of individual prices between different destinations but if some form of capping is appropriate (and perhaps it may not be to TfL in the future given their funding shortfall) then some form of zone structure is needed.

You better believe that if Government action leads to serious fare rises in London there will be deadly serious demands that tax raised in London is not used to subsidise fares in the rest of the country.

 

[matt_world2004]

Zone 6 Heathrow Airport is a mess.Three different fares depending on mode.

 

[JonathanH]

Zone 6 Heathrow Airport is a mess.Three different fares depending on mode.

Why is that 'a mess'? It recognises that:
a) speed of the journey has some value
b) the tunnel to connect to the National Rail line was financed privately

It can only be considered 'a mess' because of the principle of zonal fares applying to the rest of London.

Is the fare structure for St Pancras to Stratford International also 'a mess'?