London Service from Manchester Victoria

[kevconnor]

The current thread about stations that have two routes into London got me thinking about Manchester Victoria, whilst theoretically it would be possible I was curious to find out some more info on the historical timetables from Victoria to the capital. Did Manchester Victoria (or Manchester Exchange) ever have any direct services to London? what routing did they take and were these BR or pre-nationalisation services?

Any information which may cure my curiosity would be much appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The then North Western Trains ran an infrequent (two per day) service in the late 1990s, I used it a few times. It was a Class 158, and the fares were rock-bottom - £13ish with YP Standard Open (Anytime) Return, if I recall rightly.

I believe it was actually profitable (just) after a while, but was knackered by their not being able to get decent paths.

They also ran 4tpd from Manchester Airport to Euston using Class 322 EMUs, but near enough nobody used it and it lasted only a few months.

 

[Taunton]

Certainly before electrification in 1966 there were a couple of services a day from Victoria. They came down from Burnley etc and then ran east before turning down through Droylsden to reach the main line at Stockport. Some may have been a portion attached to a train from London Road there. My guess is that they went back to Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway days.

Before the tram and its predecessor minibus link between the stations (a 1970 innovation) it was actually very inconvenient to get between the two stations if you had heavy luggage and couldn't afford a taxi.

 

[kevconnor]

Certainly before electrification in 1966 there were a couple of services a day from Victoria. They came down from Burnley etc and then ran east before turning down through Droylsden to reach the main line at Stockport. Some may have been a portion attached to a train from London Road there. My guess is that they went back to Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway days.

Before the tram and its predecessor minibus link between the stations (a 1970 innovation) it was actually very inconvenient to get between the two stations if you had heavy luggage and couldn't afford a taxi.

That would make sense, I think I read something earlier which suggested when LYR amalgamated with LNWR services were ran through via Victoria but it suggested it was as a feeder services but it would make more sense for the time if it was portion working rather than the passengers having to change trains.

 

[Ianno87]

The then North Western Trains ran an infrequent (two per day) service in the late 1990s, I used it a few times. It was a Class 158, and the fares were rock-bottom - £13ish with YP Standard Open (Anytime) Return, if I recall rightly.

I believe it was actually profitable (just) after a while, but was knackered by their not being able to get decent paths.

They also ran 4tpd from Manchester Airport to Euston using Class 322 EMUs, but near enough nobody used it and it lasted only a few months.

Yep, they ran from Rochdale and thence via Newton-le-Willows and the WCML, and lasted between May 1998 and (I think) May 2000.

The Manchester Airport service bit the dust in May 1999 (long enough for me to sample it once!)

 

[30907]

Certainly before electrification in 1966 there were a couple of services a day from Victoria. They came down from Burnley etc and then ran east before turning down through Droylsden to reach the main line at Stockport. Some may have been a portion attached to a train from London Road there. My guess is that they went back to Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway days.

Before the tram and its predecessor minibus link between the stations (a 1970 innovation) it was actually very inconvenient to get between the two stations if you had heavy luggage and couldn't afford a taxi.

Can dig out some times next week if no one gets there first.

 

[kevconnor]

Would the LYR/LNWR services have ran into Euston?

 

[Springs Branch]

I've got a couple of old BR London Midland Region timetables to hand showing London services to/from Manchester Victoria & Exchange:-

1) Winter 1949:-
- not long after nationalisation, so still generally with pre-war LMS service patterns.
- this shows the well-known Through Carriages between East Lancashire and Euston from L&Y days.
- trains from Colne via Manchester Victoria split from / combined with carriages to/from Manchester London Road at Stockport.
- I hadn't realised there were actually two Through Carriage services each weekday.

Colne dep 0800
Man. Victoria dep 0938
London Road dep 1005
Stockport dep 1021
Euston arr 1405
(Colne portion calls at main stations via Blackburn and Bolton. Also has a portion from Halifax via Huddersfield combining at Stockport)


Colne dep 1155
Man. Victoria dep 1335
London Road dep 1405
Stockport dep 1420
Euston arr 1810
(Colne portion calls at main stations via Blackburn and Bolton & combines with London Rd portion at Stockport)

return:

London Euston dep 1445
Stockport Edgeley arr 1835
London Road arr 1855
Man. Victoria arr 1926
Colne arr 2119
(after Man Vic stops at Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn then all main stations to Rose Grove & Colne)


The Mancunian
London Euston dep 1755
Stockport Edgeley arr 2141
London Road arr 2150
Man. Victoria arr 2215
Colne arr 0002
(after Man Vic stops at Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn then all main stations to Rose Grove & Colne)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) June 1960
- during rebuilding & electrification work at London Road / Piccadilly.
- many Manchester/London services operated between Manchester Central and St Pancras at that time.
- a handful of Restaurant Car expresses ran between Manchester Victoria or Exchange and Euston.
- East Lancashire Through Carriages had been discontinued by this time - no splitting or combining trains at Stockport in this timetable.

The Lancastrian
London Euston dep 0745 SX . . (0830 SO)
Man. Victoria arr 1211 SX . . (1321 SO)
(stops at Watford Jn & Crewe SX, via Stoke on Saturday)
return:
Man. Victoria dep 1546
Euston arr 2020 (2030 SO)
(stops at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Watford Jn)


The Comet
London Euston dep 0935
Man. Victoria arr 1348 SX . . (1432 SO)
(stops at Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield & Stockport Edgeley)
return:
Man. Victoria dep 1728
London Euston arr 2150 SX . . (2200 SO)
(stops at Stockport Edgeley & Watford Jn)


The Mancunian
Man. Exchange dep 0935
London Euston arr 1340
(no advertised stops)
return:
London Euston dep 1800
Wilmslow arr. 21s41
Man. Exchange arr 2230
(SO also stops at Cheadle Hulme and Stockport Edgeley)
Presumably this train ran from the through platforms at Manchester Exchange as it seems to approach via Stockport and Miles Platting rather than Earlestown and the Chat Moss line.

 

[billh]

- East Lancashire Through Carriages had been discontinued by this time - no splitting or combining trains at Stockport in this timetable.

.

So when did the Colne -Euston service finish? I remember seeing the destination boards on the coaches of this train between Droylsden and Denton, possibly as late as 1960. The loco would be a Crab, a 5MT or sometimes a Jubilee. I thought they were mixed in with the various diverts caused by the London Road re-building.The latter produced brand new(!) Peaks and type 4s as well as Brits,Pats and Scots.
Bill

 

[30907]

So when did the Colne -Euston service finish? I remember seeing the destination boards on the coaches of this train between Droylsden and Denton, possibly as late as 1960. The loco would be a Crab, a 5MT or sometimes a Jubilee. I thought they were mixed in with the various diverts caused by the London Road re-building.The latter produced brand new(!) Peaks and type 4s as well as Brits,Pats and Scots.
Bill

At a guess, they went when the electrification works timetable came in, never to return.
They were still running in 1958, at 9.45am, 2.45 and 6.30pm from Euston - the last into Colne at 12.32am.

 

[Springs Branch]

At a guess, they went when the electrification works timetable came in, never to return.
They were still running in 1958, at 9.45am, 2.45 and 6.30pm from Euston - the last into Colne at 12.32am.

With the Manchester – Crewe line being electrified and track rationalization & resignalling underway at Stockport in 1960, you could understand why the LMR did not want the faff of combining and dividing Colne portions up to six times a day at Edgeley.

But with some Manchester/London expresses diverted to Manchester Victoria & Exchange at the time, it would have been quite convenient to add or detach East Lancashire carriages there instead of at Stockport.

Probably they went under a wider policy to eliminate Through Carriages from expresses – the weekday Southport/London Through Carriages (attached/detached from Euston trains at Lime Street) seemed to last right up to the start of the new electrified Liverpool – Euston service in 1966. In this case, a couple of carriages hauled by a tank engine were replaced with connecting 2-car DMUs between Lime Street and Southport via Edge Hill & Bootle Junction – until these DMUs ended after the Merseyrail Link & Loop opened in the late 1970s.

 

[Taunton]

the weekday Southport/London Through Carriages (attached/detached from Euston trains at Lime Street) seemed to last right up to the start of the new electrified Liverpool – Euston service in 1966. In this case, a couple of carriages hauled by a tank engine were replaced with connecting 2-car DMUs between Lime Street and Southport via Edge Hill & Bootle Junction – until these DMUs ended after the Merseyrail Link & Loop opened in the late 1970s.

The excuse given for the elimination of the dmu connections always struck me, living nearby at the time, as something thought up far from Liverpool, because the only main station the new Link Line did not serve was Lime Street. A double change was needed, via the Wirral Loop line. If you had heavy bags this was a right nuisance, with multiple escalators and passages to be covered. I presume the author of the excuse had never done it. Far more likely was the elimination of costs, some of the dmus on the service only managed one round trip a day, and there was a lot of empty running between ends as well, as the services were mainly to Lime Street in the morning and away from there in the evening.

 

[daodao]

Many years ago, there were also Midland services to St.Pancras, which originated from the Hellifield line via Blackburn.

 

[SouthDevonian]

The LMR public timetable for summer 1961 shows TCs to Colne attached to the 09.45 + 15.00 + 18.25 ex Euston. Going south they departed Colne at 08.00 + 12.00. None of these appeared in the 1963 public timetable so they ceased sometime between September 1961 & June 1963.

Xpress Publications book ‘Operation West Coast’ details all main passenger trains on this route for winter 1956. Relevant Colne extracts are:
1. 09.45 Euston – Manchester & Colne (2 of the 12 coaches for Colne) {*)
2. 14.45 Euston – Manchester & Colne (4 of the 15 coaches for Colne)
Next day the 6 Colne coaches returned to Euston at 08.00 attached to the 10.00 ex-Manchester (another 6 coaches)
3. 18.30 Euston – Preston & Colne & Manchester (3 coaches for Colne of 10 coaches 4 full brakes)
Next day the 3 Colne coaches returned to Euston at 11.55am and were attached to the 14.00 ex-Manchester.

(*) these 2 coaches operated a 4 day cycle: Day 1 Euston – Colne; Day 2 Colne – Euston; Day 3 Euston – Southport (detached from Liverpool train at Edge Hill); Day 4 Southport – Euston (attached to Liverpool train at Lime St).