'London Terminals' query

[greenchicken]

Hi there

I’m buying a monthly Travelcard via Southern Trains for my new commute, which is New Cross Gate to London Bridge. However, when I search for the cost of the card online it shows me New Cross Gate to ‘London Terminals’. Does this mean I could potentially use the card from other terminals such as Charing Cross, changing at London Bridge, then back to New Cross Gate? That is a journey I sometimes take if coming home in the evening from Central London, which includes two trains but no Tubes.

Thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes. From New Cross Gate valid and relevant London terminals include London Bridge, Cannon St, Blackfriars, City T/L, Charing Cross, and Waterloo East.

But be aware that what you are buying is a season ticket to the named destination of 'London Terminals' - that is not a 'travelcard', but emphatically just a rail only 'season ticket'.

A 'travelcard season' is a different product, and is an all purpose zonal rail/tube/bus ticket. Be sure to buy what you really need.

 

[greenchicken]

Thanks, that's great. To confirm, I can still use the ticket switching from the Southern Train at London Bridge to the Southeastern train to Charing Cross?

Would I be able to go to New Cross, or only New Cross Gate? Presume the latter, but thought I would check as I think there is an Oyster rule saying you can interchange between those two without extra charges

 

[transmanche]

Would I be able to go to New Cross, or only New Cross Gate? Presume the latter, but thought I would check as I think there is an Oyster rule saying you can interchange between those two without extra charges

I don't know the answer to the specific question, but it's worth re-iterating this is a rail-only season ticket. What applies to Travelcards and/or Oyster PAYG may not be applicable to a rail-only season ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Would I be able to go to New Cross, or only New Cross Gate? Presume the latter, but thought I would check

Unfortunately I can't find an entry for New Cross/New Cross Gate in this inter-available stations list, so unless there is a "local" easement, or accepted practice, then I don't think you can.

If there are disruptions to services then there is a good chance you may be able to do that, though.

as I think there is an Oyster rule saying you can interchange between those two without extra charges

It is true that New Cross <> New Cross Gate is indeed an Oyster OSI. Only a small proportion of Oyster OSIs have inter-available ticketing arrangements, most of them do not.

 

[greenchicken]

Unfortunately I can't find an entry for New Cross/New Cross Gate in this inter-available stations list, so unless there is a "local" easement, or accepted practice, then I don't think you can.

If there are disruptions to services then there is a good chance you may be able to do that, though.


It is true that New Cross <> New Cross Gate is indeed an Oyster OSI. Only a small proportion of Oyster OSIs have inter-available ticketing arrangements, most of them do not.

Thanks!

 

[maniacmartin]

New Cross Gate to London Terminals is the same price as Brockely to London Terminals.
The Brockley ticket gives you extra validity as you can go further. You can always start and stop short at any intermediate station including New Cross Gate.

New Cross to New Cross Gate is a recognised walking interchange, so the following itinerary is valid under the 3 mile rule:
London Bridge - New Cross -(walk)- New Cross Gate - Brockley.

Furthermore, searching Brockley to London Bridge on National Rail Enquires with a via point of New Cross gives an itinerary on one ticket of:
Brockley - Surrey Quays - New Cross - London Bridge.
I'm not sure why this is valid (probably 3 mile rule, but I haven't checked)

This ticket would therefore be valid at New Cross, however the gateline may reject it and staff might not agree.

 

[greenchicken]

New Cross Gate to London Terminals is the same price as Brockely to London Terminals.
The Brockley ticket gives you extra validity as you can go further. You can always start and stop short at any intermediate station including New Cross Gate.

New Cross to New Cross Gate is a recognised walking interchange, so the following itinerary is valid under the 3 mile rule:
London Bridge - New Cross -(walk)- New Cross Gate - Brockley.

Furthermore, searching Brockley to London Bridge on National Rail Enquires with a via point of New Cross gives an itinerary on one ticket of:
Brockley - Surrey Quays - New Cross - London Bridge.
I'm not sure why this is valid (probably 3 mile rule, but I haven't checked)

This ticket would therefore be valid at New Cross, however the gateline may reject it and staff might not agree.

Thanks, think I understand. As long as I can do:

New Cross Gate -> London Bridge and vice versa
New Cross Gate -> London Bridge -> Charing Cross and vice versa

that covers the majority of my journeys.

 

[yorkie]

Yes; definitely get the Brockley ticket, it's a lot better value.

 

[greenchicken]

Yes; definitely get the Brockley ticket, it's a lot better value.

I'm not sure I get the benefits of the Brockley ticket, does it just mean I can go further down the line?

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure I get the benefits of the Brockley ticket, does it just mean I can go further down the line?

London - New Cross is not valid on a London - New Cross Gate ticket.
London - New Cross is valid on a London - Brockley ticket.

Additionally, you can go to Brockley, should the need arise.

 

[greenchicken]

London - New Cross is not valid on a London - New Cross Gate ticket.
London - New Cross is valid on a London - Brockley ticket.

Additionally, you can go to Brockley, should the need arise.

OK, got you. And presumably there will be no problem with London - New Cross Gate on that?

 

[ainsworth74]

None at all. With season tickets as long as your on a permitted route (which New Cross Gate is for Brockley - London) you can get on/off at any station you like between the two points of your season ticket.

 

[greenchicken]

None at all. With season tickets as long as your on a permitted route (which New Cross Gate is for Brockley - London) you can get on/off at any station you like between the two points of your season ticket.

Great - that's why I'm a bit confused about New Cross though, isn't that on a different route to Bromley?

 

[yorkie]

Great - that's why I'm a bit confused about New Cross though, isn't that on a different route to Bromley?

It is; see post #7

 

[maniacmartin]

There can be a number of permitted routes for a ticket. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage define 3 types of permitted route:

• The shortest route
• Any route taken without changing trains
• Routes in the National Routeing Guide

The National Routeing Guide is a complex document that uses combinations of maps to generate lists of permitted routes. However it also states that any route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route is permitted. It also states that routes must be checked on National Rail Enquiries website.

Walking between New Cross and New Cross Gate (which is on a list of permitted walking interchanges) produces a rotue no more than 3 miles more then the shortest, so that is valid. (There is some debate as to whether a permitted route can start or end with a walk, which the Brockley ticket avoids)

-----

Going via Surrey Quays is shown as a route in NRE, so must be valid. We don't need to check, but we can...
It's not a mapped route, nor is it a direct train, so perhaps it qualifies under the 3 mile rule. The mileages are given in the top left corner of table 178 of the Network Rail timetable.
Surrey Quays - New Cross = 5.75 - 4.5 miles = 1.25 miles
Surrey Quays - New Cross Gate = 5.75 - 4.5 = 1.25 miles

Table 177 shows London Bridge to New Cross is 2.75 miles

Table 200 shows London Bridge to New Cross as 4.75 - 1.75 = 3 miles.
Thus the additional mileage of going via Surrey Quays and New Cross is 1.25 + 1.25 + (3-2.75) miles = 2.75 miles extra, hence this route is allowed under the 3 mile rule.

Given there are 3 reasons in this post as to why the ticket is valid via New Cross, I'd say it's pretty indisuptable

 

[johnnycache]

Between January 2015 and August 2016 there will not be any trains stopping at London Bridge going to Charing Cross because of the thameslink project.

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/node/109