Long Weekender fare dispute (GWR data error & GWR staff incorrectly denying travel)

[eoff]

Which Magazine has a story about an incorrect description of these tickets...

Dear Which?,

I recently purchased two 'Long Weekender' return tickets from London Paddington to Bath Spa. I used the Trainline app, which stated that these tickets allow you to return within three days.

I travelled to Bath on the Friday - but when I tried to return to London the following day, I was told my tickets weren’t valid. On closer inspection, I saw that the return ticket was only valid for travel on the Monday, despite the app stating I could return within three days.


Full story here: https://www.which.co.uk/news/articl...hts-when-train-travel-goes-wrong-anYwl6Z7xZ06

So is the retailer correct here, that fare restriction information originates from the operator (who according to the story did not comment)?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But was the return train ticket "wrongly refused"? Seems to me that it wasn't, it was possibly mis-sold by Trainline.

 

[Haywain]

So is the retailer correct here, that fare restriction information originates from the operator (who according to the story did not comment)?

Yes, the retailer is correct but that does not absolve them of responsibility to communicate that information to the customer.

 

[eoff]

But was the return train ticket "wrongly refused"? Seems to me that it wasn't, it was possibly mis-sold by Trainline.

That's a tricky question because if the (original) validity information came from the operator then you could argue they need to stand by it. But the contract is with the retailer.

 

[Watershed]

Trainline are likely correct here; the data in the fares feed often doesn't reflect the validity TOCs intend for a fare to have.

The attitude of the staff in this case is bang out of order, though sadly not exactly surprising. The retailer is an authorised agent of the train company (and in any event has the 'apparent authority' to act on its behalf); accordingly, the information it gives constitutes a binding term of the contract. It doesn't matter whether the retailer has made a mistake or not - if they have, it's for the train company to take up with the retailer. They can't just act in breach of contract because it doesn't suit them.

Whilst Which? are right to mention the ability to take the case to the chocolate teapot of an Ombudsman, or ultimately to Court, it's disappointing that they don't mention the fact that the ticket was actually valid and that GWR were therefore in the wrong here.

That's a tricky question because if the validity information came from the operator then you could argue they need to stand by it.

They need to stand by it whether it's come from them or not - that's the nature of agency law. Though in this case, it will have come from them.

But the contract is with the retailer.

It's both with the retailer and the train company.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Which Magazine has a story about an incorrect description of these tickets...

'My return train ticket was wrongly refused': your rights when train travel goes wrong - Which?

We help a reader in a dispute over unclear ticketing

www.which.co.uk

So is the retailer correct here, that fare restriction information originates from the operator (who according to the story did not comment)?

Seems to be a case of "a little from Column A, a little from Column B."

There are no pages on NRE for the original validity code (5N) or either of the two new validity codes: 6T and 6U.

BRFares, meanwhile, shows that there are (now) two separate products, a Three Day version (for outward travel on Saturdays) and a Four Day one (for outward travel on Fridays), both of which are setup in the electronic data to only allow outward travel on Friday or Saturday (as appropriate) and return travel on Monday.

Checking Trainline just now, the Long Weekend tickets are only offered if you choose "Open Return" or specifically state a Monday return.

 

[Haywain]

the ticket was actually valid and that GWR were therefore in the wrong here.

What do you base this on? There is no way now of seeing what information was presented at the time of purchase or what was actually shown on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

What do you base this on? There is no way now of seeing what information was presented at the time of purchase or what was actually shown on the ticket.

The ticket was valid as per the data, hence why the itinerary was issued.

Furthermore, any ticket issued in conjunction with an itinerary is automatically deemed valid for that itinerary.

GWR staff were clearly in the wrong; this is a not uncommon occurrence, sadly.

 

[plymothian]

On closer inspection, I saw that the return ticket was only valid for travel on the Monday, despite the app stating I could return within three days

This suggests that the ticket was issued with the correct validity on it but the interpretation displayed on trainline is wrong. Much in the same way that all return tickets are described as 'open' on trainline.

 

[yorkie]

This suggests that the ticket was issued with the correct validity on it but the interpretation displayed on trainline is wrong. Much in the same way that all return tickets are described as 'open' on trainline.

Other way round.

This is the fare:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

The text description is what the customer is referring to, however at the time the ticket was (correctly) sold because there was (incorrectly) no restrictions specified by the fare setter (GWR).

Where this occurs, the ticket must be accepted as per the itinerary.

GWR have a big problem with not providing appropriate training to their staff; the company has insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that th company adheres to consumer and contract law.

GWR are an absolute disgrace and this is by no means the first time this has happened; it's not at all uncommon.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket was valid as per the data, hence why the itinerary was issued.

With respect, you're guessing here - there is no mention of an itinerary having been obtained.

 

[Western Sunset]

Picked-up a GWR "Our revenue protection and prosecutions policy" booklet at Westbury yesterday. Dated Jan 2023, amended Apr 2023 so presumably the current edition.

On the final page is an "If you are unhappy" section. It suggests calling their Customer Support team or getting in touch with Transport Focus. However there is no mention of the Railway Ombudsman - is that organisation defunct or just not worth bothering about now?

 

[yorkie]

With respect, you're guessing here - there is no mention of an itinerary having been obtained.

There was a data issue with these fares (this is not a guess; it's a fact); itineraries were issued for travel back on the following day.

If the passenger had an itinerary, they were valid.

If they didn't have an itinerary and had selected an 'open' return, but passenger saw a description stating the ticket was valid to return within three days, they were valid.

GWR have a big problem whereby gateline staff incorrectly deny travel in either, or both, of the above cases.

the company needs to put appropriate procedures and safeguards in place.

 

[Master29]

Picked-up a GWR "Our revenue protection and prosecutions policy" booklet at Westbury yesterday. Dated Jan 2023, amended Apr 2023 so presumably the current edition.

On the final page is an "If you are unhappy" section. It suggests calling their Customer Support team or getting in touch with Transport Focus. However there is no mention of the Railway Ombudsman - is that organisation defunct or just not worth bothering about now?

As mentioned earlier, a chocolate teapot of an organisation

 

[maniacmartin]

[...] But the contract is with the retailer.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage say otherwise:

1. Your contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train
Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the
ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller
is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to
travel

 

[Bluejays]

Blaming of the GWR staff is a bit daft. They were told by the company that these were only valid on Monday. The tickets themselves showed as only being valid on Monday.

The problem lies squarely with the complete morons in head office who decided to further complicate the ticketing system by adding a new ticket type, then doubled down on their mistake by providing wrong information about it to retailers.

Utterly shameful that GWR refused to even engage with which over the matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blaming of the GWR staff is a bit daft. They were told by the company that these were only valid on Monday. The tickets themselves showed as only being valid on Monday.

The problem lies squarely with the complete morons in head office who decided to further complicate the ticketing system by adding a new ticket type, then doubled down on their mistake by providing wrong information about it to retailers.

Utterly shameful that GWR refused to even engage with which over the matter.

The staff should know that if a ticket is issued against an itinerary, regardless of whether it should have been or not, it is valid. An option is to withdraw it for investigation as to why it was issued, in which case a free replacement should be issued.

This is NOT new.

 

[Haywain]

The staff should know that if a ticket is issued against an itinerary, regardless of whether it should have been or not, it is valid. An option is to withdraw it for investigation as to why it was issued, in which case a free replacement should be issued.

This is NOT new.

But we don't know that it was issued against an itinerary for the return journey.

 

[Bluejays]

The staff should know that if a ticket is issued against an itinerary, regardless of whether it should have been or not, it is valid. An option is to withdraw it for investigation as to why it was issued, in which case a free replacement should be issued.

This is NOT new.

Do we know that the gate staff were shown an itinerary? Or do we know that the passenger properly explained that they had definitely booked it for the Saturday. Good possibility that all the staff had to go on was a ticket that showed as valid on the Monday.

The reality of course is that passengers and frontline staff shouldn't have to be put into these situations. The passengers should be getting compensation from gwr(on top of the Trainline refund), and the gate line staff should be recieving personal appologies from the idiot responsible for wrongly launching this ticket. I'd imagine there's more chance of seeing flying pigs or a properly maintained turbo than that actually happening though.

As for the 'should know' , yes they should. But are they being trained properly ? Easy cop out to lay it on the individual staff, when everything indicates that this case is a company problem.