Masbroughlad
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What worked Fenchurch Street to Essex coast services pre-electrification?
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LTS Traction pre-electrification?
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CatfordCat
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Masbroughlad
Established Member
Was it never diesels?
87015
Established Member
Seen pictures of 31s and 20s on passenger workings but don't believe it was ever diesel dominated like the WCML was. Probably got some daft workings with 15s and 16s as well, but totally unreported!
Straight from steam to electric, indeed. I seem to recall reading there was a major, experimental, new system signalling system set up that came into use alongside the electric trains. Also, Barking station was substantially reconstructed and enlarged, and the flyovers and flyunders both east and west of it were built as part of this project, I think. I think the segregation of the Emerson Park branch at Upminster from LTS services (and the assocaited construction of the new Platform 6 there) also dates from this time - it really was a very major modernisation project.
Bishopstone
Established Member
About that time, yes. I think I've seen a picture of an early 'green with whiskers' DMU, probably a 101, at Ockendon working a Grays-Romford or vice-versa service when there was still a connection. It might be the photo was mis-captioned and the DMU was just shuttling between Grays (or Tilbury Riverside) and Upminster (bay platform) whilst covering for an EMU, or during electrification work, but that would still fit the criteria of diesel working on the LTS.
There might have been diesels on the through workings off the T&H route at Barking to Southend (and possibly the Tilbury boat trains too) but my money would (perhaps wrongly) have been on Sulzer 2's (later classes 24/25) which I associate with Cricklewood.
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Yes, except I think 4 or 5 is a slight underestimate at least for the peaks
There might have been diesels on the through workings off the T&H route at Barking to Southend (and possibly the Tilbury boat trains too) but my money would (perhaps wrongly) have been on Sulzer 2's (later classes 24/25) which I associate with Cricklewood.
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Yes, except I think 4 or 5 is a slight underestimate at least for the peaks
Yes you are probably correct. I was much too young to be at Barking station during peak hours.
There were indeed a handful of Type 2 diesel workings in the years between them arriving at Cricklewood and Stratford (about 1958-9) and the electrification, completed in 1962, but I believe only on through services over the T&H joining at Barking and heading for Southend, which at summer weekends were quite extensive. These did indeed continue beyond the electrification.
There was also dieselisation of freight workings which brought various, generally smaller, types to the line. The link up from Devons Road on the NLR freight-only line (nowadays the DLR) up to Bromley-by-Bow was still extant, and Devons Road Type 1 locos added to the variety. They came up and crossed the District Line on the level to gain the LTS tracks.
But Fenchurch Street trains were steam right up to the 1962 electrification. The LMS built a large number of quite sizeable 2-6-4T tanks, and 37 special variants of these, later Nos. 42500-36, were built in 1934 with 3 cylinders which gave them even more power for the decidedly heavy (for tank engines) trains. In LTS days some trains had been up to 13 carriages in the peak hours, and while the older carriages were a bit shorter these big trains continued to the end. There weren't enough of the specials to go round so standard 2-cylinder 2-6-4Ts, and later the BR standards in the 80xxx series based on these, filled in on the lighter turns. The specials never worked anywhere else and were scrapped upon electrification. The length of the trains was determined entirely by the length of the platforms at Fenchurch Street, and as these were all different (they were standardised at electrification) it was quite a challenge to diagram efficiently. The key trains were the fast services to Southend and Shoeburyness. I believe corridor coaches were never used on this line (as indeed they were not when the electrics came either), to maximise seating.
There were plenty of the former LTS standard 4-4-2Ts still around until a few years before the electrification
The steam loco depots were at Plaistow (closed on electrification), Tilbury and Shoeburyness. These sheds suffered from being in the lower Thames valley and having the worst water quality on the whole of BR. As a result the steam locos needed very frequent washing out, almost weekly, and the loco stud was some 20% more than the daily turnout required just to handle this.
The LMS installed on this line their pioneer AWS system, the "Hudd" system, more similar to the current BR AWS, with polarised magnets, than the GWR's widespread semi-mechanical system. The captive loco fleet enabled this, along with the considerable fogs along the River Thames the line was prone to. This was changed to the standard BR AWS system at electrification.
The Romford to Grays line was operated as one through service until electrification, straight across both the Southend main and the District Line at Upminster. Until the mid-1950s LTS 4-4-2Ts handled it, then Stratford dmus took over. Although they might appear to be Metro-Cammell class 101s, they were actually the earlier 'Yellow Diamond' dmus, both Derby and Met-Cam built, which dominated East Anglia in the early diesel years. The 1962 electrification covered the southern half but cut the northern off to a spur from Romford. The District Line was extended eastwards from Upminster into their new depot east of there, until this time the District depot at the east end had been at East Ham, on the land then used for the new LTS electric depot which took the place of Plaistow steam shed as the London end base.
There was also dieselisation of freight workings which brought various, generally smaller, types to the line. The link up from Devons Road on the NLR freight-only line (nowadays the DLR) up to Bromley-by-Bow was still extant, and Devons Road Type 1 locos added to the variety. They came up and crossed the District Line on the level to gain the LTS tracks.
But Fenchurch Street trains were steam right up to the 1962 electrification. The LMS built a large number of quite sizeable 2-6-4T tanks, and 37 special variants of these, later Nos. 42500-36, were built in 1934 with 3 cylinders which gave them even more power for the decidedly heavy (for tank engines) trains. In LTS days some trains had been up to 13 carriages in the peak hours, and while the older carriages were a bit shorter these big trains continued to the end. There weren't enough of the specials to go round so standard 2-cylinder 2-6-4Ts, and later the BR standards in the 80xxx series based on these, filled in on the lighter turns. The specials never worked anywhere else and were scrapped upon electrification. The length of the trains was determined entirely by the length of the platforms at Fenchurch Street, and as these were all different (they were standardised at electrification) it was quite a challenge to diagram efficiently. The key trains were the fast services to Southend and Shoeburyness. I believe corridor coaches were never used on this line (as indeed they were not when the electrics came either), to maximise seating.
There were plenty of the former LTS standard 4-4-2Ts still around until a few years before the electrification
The steam loco depots were at Plaistow (closed on electrification), Tilbury and Shoeburyness. These sheds suffered from being in the lower Thames valley and having the worst water quality on the whole of BR. As a result the steam locos needed very frequent washing out, almost weekly, and the loco stud was some 20% more than the daily turnout required just to handle this.
The LMS installed on this line their pioneer AWS system, the "Hudd" system, more similar to the current BR AWS, with polarised magnets, than the GWR's widespread semi-mechanical system. The captive loco fleet enabled this, along with the considerable fogs along the River Thames the line was prone to. This was changed to the standard BR AWS system at electrification.
The Romford to Grays line was operated as one through service until electrification, straight across both the Southend main and the District Line at Upminster. Until the mid-1950s LTS 4-4-2Ts handled it, then Stratford dmus took over. Although they might appear to be Metro-Cammell class 101s, they were actually the earlier 'Yellow Diamond' dmus, both Derby and Met-Cam built, which dominated East Anglia in the early diesel years. The 1962 electrification covered the southern half but cut the northern off to a spur from Romford. The District Line was extended eastwards from Upminster into their new depot east of there, until this time the District depot at the east end had been at East Ham, on the land then used for the new LTS electric depot which took the place of Plaistow steam shed as the London end base.
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Wivenswold
Established Member
I worked at East Ham Depot for 2 years in the 90's but I've never seen a photo of it from District Line days.
341o2
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there used to be a through service from (I think) St Pancras, as a family before we aquired our first car, I remember catching the 29 bus from Southgate to Haringey (not stadium) this line now completely clearerd and the station site a shopping centre, direct to Southend, a service withdrawn when the line electrified
Southend pier railway double track with scissior crossovers at each end and trains consisting of four wheel electric cars
Southend pier railway double track with scissior crossovers at each end and trains consisting of four wheel electric cars
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There was a curve in the Gospel Oak area and a through service between St Pancras and Barking via the Tottenham and Hampstead until sometime in the 80s I think. This curve was removed when the service was diverted to Gospel Oak to link with the North London Line, and is now a construction company's depot. There is still a curve from the T&H onto the Midland main line northwards, and these were the links to the parent system after the LT&S was absorbed by the Midland.
I would just add that where I referred to the "1962 electrification" of Fenchurch Street, this was actually started in 1939 and finished off in 1948, at 1500v dc, along the link to the GE line at Bow which is still available for emergency use. Pre-war a lot of the LNER suburban trains ran into Fenchurch Street instead of Liverpool Street via this route (not commonly known that Fenchurch St was a GER/LNER station, and not an LTS/LMS station - their tracks only started at Bow, some miles to the east). Post-war ideas changed, and as far as I am aware the Fenchurch Street 1500v electrification was never used as such, apart from a weekly empty emu which was sent down through the 1950s at a quiet time to run back and forward into the various platforms and keep the wires from becoming sooted up. It was changed to ac electrification at the same time as the rest of the GE line, and only came into proper use when the LTS electrification started.
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ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Certainly , there were summer only , weekend DMU specials / excursions to and from Southend via Barking and the T&H from Watford Junction and Tring.
Trafalgar55
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Hi All,
Before electrification in 1961/2, all scheduled passenger services were steam-hauled.
Before the LT&SR obtained their own locomotives in 1880, engines were hired from the Easter Counties/Great Eastern. In 1880 the first of 36 4-4-2 tank
engines was introduced, followed by later improvements in size and power up to the Midland takeover in 1912. Freight was generally handled by a class of very efficient 0-6-2 tanks. The only two tender engines ever owned were two 0-6-0s obtained from Sharp-Stewart to cover a severe lack of engines to cope with burgeoning traffic.
In 1912, eight Whitelegg-designed 4-6-4 Baltic tanks were introduced, intended for the heaviest/fastest peak commuter trains, but the Great Eastern banned the from Fenchurch Street on grounds of weight/axle loading.
In due course, the Midland and latterly LMS perpetuated the 4-4-2Ts based on the Whitelegg '79' Class, until 1934 when the 3-cylinder 2-6-4Ts arrived. These, and their 2-cylinder cousins took on the heaviest trains, while lesser services (i.e. via Tilbury) also saw the 4-4-2Ts. A significant number of the 3-cylinder tanks were posted away from the Tilbury line during the war, leaving the 4-4-2T to cope. The BR 80000 series 2-6-4Ts arrived shortly before electrification, and continued until the full electric service started.
At this point, Plaistow shed was closed and steam maintenance was mover to the NLR Bow works, heavy overhauls being undertaken at Derby.
The mainstay of the electric service were the AM2 (later Class 302) units which were commonly run as 8 or 12 car formations.
Diesel passenger services on the LT&S generally came from the Tottenham & Forest Gate line (St. Pancras/Kentish Town) to Southend. There was also a steam service from this line which terminated at East Ham. This was usually in the charge of a Fowler/Stanier 2-6-2T, often one of the engines fitted with condensing apparatus.
The Romford to Grays/Tilbury service was originally run by the smaller 4-4-2Ts, but the Midland used a number of ancient push-pull fitted 0-4-4Ts, and these remained until supplanted by diesel multiple units. Around this time the through route was severed to avoid conflict with the District Line trains, and operated as Romford-Upminster and separately Upminster - Grays/Tilbury.
Freight haulage was always very varied, depending on where to/from the trains originated. As stated 2-8-0 WD 8Fs were common, as were latterly 9F 2-10-0s, and seemingly many other types. When diesels arrived, the NLR Bow shed was one of the first to be 'converted' and received Type 1s (Class 20). The smaller NBL Bo-Bo (Class 15s from Stratford) also featured.
I can recommend Peter Kay's histories of the line for anyone interested further. The latest volume covers this period.
Before electrification in 1961/2, all scheduled passenger services were steam-hauled.
Before the LT&SR obtained their own locomotives in 1880, engines were hired from the Easter Counties/Great Eastern. In 1880 the first of 36 4-4-2 tank
engines was introduced, followed by later improvements in size and power up to the Midland takeover in 1912. Freight was generally handled by a class of very efficient 0-6-2 tanks. The only two tender engines ever owned were two 0-6-0s obtained from Sharp-Stewart to cover a severe lack of engines to cope with burgeoning traffic.
In 1912, eight Whitelegg-designed 4-6-4 Baltic tanks were introduced, intended for the heaviest/fastest peak commuter trains, but the Great Eastern banned the from Fenchurch Street on grounds of weight/axle loading.
In due course, the Midland and latterly LMS perpetuated the 4-4-2Ts based on the Whitelegg '79' Class, until 1934 when the 3-cylinder 2-6-4Ts arrived. These, and their 2-cylinder cousins took on the heaviest trains, while lesser services (i.e. via Tilbury) also saw the 4-4-2Ts. A significant number of the 3-cylinder tanks were posted away from the Tilbury line during the war, leaving the 4-4-2T to cope. The BR 80000 series 2-6-4Ts arrived shortly before electrification, and continued until the full electric service started.
At this point, Plaistow shed was closed and steam maintenance was mover to the NLR Bow works, heavy overhauls being undertaken at Derby.
The mainstay of the electric service were the AM2 (later Class 302) units which were commonly run as 8 or 12 car formations.
Diesel passenger services on the LT&S generally came from the Tottenham & Forest Gate line (St. Pancras/Kentish Town) to Southend. There was also a steam service from this line which terminated at East Ham. This was usually in the charge of a Fowler/Stanier 2-6-2T, often one of the engines fitted with condensing apparatus.
The Romford to Grays/Tilbury service was originally run by the smaller 4-4-2Ts, but the Midland used a number of ancient push-pull fitted 0-4-4Ts, and these remained until supplanted by diesel multiple units. Around this time the through route was severed to avoid conflict with the District Line trains, and operated as Romford-Upminster and separately Upminster - Grays/Tilbury.
Freight haulage was always very varied, depending on where to/from the trains originated. As stated 2-8-0 WD 8Fs were common, as were latterly 9F 2-10-0s, and seemingly many other types. When diesels arrived, the NLR Bow shed was one of the first to be 'converted' and received Type 1s (Class 20). The smaller NBL Bo-Bo (Class 15s from Stratford) also featured.
I can recommend Peter Kay's histories of the line for anyone interested further. The latest volume covers this period.
A couple of memories:
For a few years the Romford to Upminster line was operated by class 125 DMUs which were built for the Lea Valley line. (As a youngster it seemed odd to me that all the Diesel Hydraulic locos were on the Western Region, but the Eastern had Diesel Hydraulic DMUs).
Also I had a journey on a DMU on the Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Steeet line - an old low-density unit. I think it was in the 1970s and it was due engineering works or power failure. I remember it being painfully slow in comparison to the usual EMU. I don't recall whether it went all the way to Fenchurch Street - but it certainly made it was far as Barking.
For a few years the Romford to Upminster line was operated by class 125 DMUs which were built for the Lea Valley line. (As a youngster it seemed odd to me that all the Diesel Hydraulic locos were on the Western Region, but the Eastern had Diesel Hydraulic DMUs).
Also I had a journey on a DMU on the Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Steeet line - an old low-density unit. I think it was in the 1970s and it was due engineering works or power failure. I remember it being painfully slow in comparison to the usual EMU. I don't recall whether it went all the way to Fenchurch Street - but it certainly made it was far as Barking.
These dmu substitutions did happen for all sorts of reasons. Colleagues who commuted from South Woodham Ferrers to Liverpool Street in the early 1980s, changing at Wickford before the Southminster branch was electrified, told that on a couple of occasions when problems further down the Southend Victoria line had prevented those trains coming through Wickford, a Southminster dmu would be hijacked to perform an impromptu shuttle from Wickford to Shenfield.
The last such I recall was the evening of the hurricane storm, 25 January 1990, when I was on one of the few trains venturing up the SW Main from Woking towards Waterloo, stopping at all stations and pretty much all intermediate signals as well. Around Surbiton we were overtaken on the fast line by, of all things, a 3-car Met Cam dmu. No idea where it came from or what it was doing.
These Baltic tanks produced just before the Midland takeover were poor steamers, overweight, and had other design issues and were disliked by the crews. They didn't serve a full life. After the takeover, Whitelegg moved on to the top mechanical job at the Glasgow & South Western Railway where he produced a very similar Baltic tank with all the same design errors; visibility from the cab was particularly poor, and these didn't last that long under the LMS either. David L Smith's classic books about the G&SW have several witty and pithy things to say about the Baltics.
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In pedant mode, if it's the Michael Fish one you mea , that was October 87. But the idea of a class 101 on the lsw Main line is intriguing. .. I think they were on reading - Gatwick around then?
Talk of services on the LTSR puts me in mind of my schooldays in the fifties and seeing the Swedish Lloyd/P&O Boat Trains going through Walthamstow bound for Tilbury. Usually pulled by a "flying pig" or a 4F, normally in grotty condition and certainly not travelling at express speeds! Wonder what the passengers thought of this inauspicious start to their Scandinavian trip?
No, this was the second such storm in a few years, sometimes called the Burns Day storm because it happened on that day in 1990, January 25. The "Michael Fish" one happened in the night; this second one came during the day.
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