Macclesfield to Stockport with a TFGM Bus and Rail Pass

[petemarconi]

I travel occasionally from Macclesfield to Stockport, usually using the Northern Advances. If I bought a Macclesfield to Bramhall return (Bramhall is the limit of the TFGM rail/bus pass), would I be able to travel on the (faster) Cross Country and Avanti services ? (even though they obviously dont stop at Bramhall).

I’m aware that with the Bus/train pass the train travelled on doesn‘t have to stop at the last valid station, but it would seem counterintuitive for this to be a valid trip, as presumably Cross Country/ Avanti would get none of the fare as Northern will set/collect all the Macclesfield to Bramhall fares.

Apologies if this has been covered before, I’ve found similar examples, but only when it’s the same TOC involved that stops sometimes at the station in question.

 

[Watershed]

I travel occasionally from Macclesfield to Stockport, usually using the Northern Advances. If I bought a Macclesfield to Bramhall return (Bramhall is the limit of the TFGM rail/bus pass), would I be able to travel on the (faster) Cross Country and Avanti services ? (even though they obviously dont stop at Bramhall).

I’m aware that with the Bus/train pass the train travelled on doesn‘t have to stop at the last valid station, but it would seem counterintuitive for this to be a valid trip, as presumably Cross Country/ Avanti would get none of the fare as Northern will set/collect all the Macclesfield to Bramhall fares.

Apologies if this has been covered before, I’ve found similar examples, but only when it’s the same TOC involved that stops sometimes at the station in question.

Whether or not the operator you travel with gets revenue from your ticket is irrelevant; there are plenty of cases where it is perfectly valid to travel with an operator that will not receive any of your money.

The only question is whether your TfGM pass has any conditions excluding its use in non-stop combination with another ticket. You'll need to take a look at any conditions that you were referred to when you were issued or applied for the pass. So long as it doesn't, this is a valid combination and you can take XC and Avanti services that run non-stop through Bramhall.

 

[petemarconi]

Whether or not the operator you travel with gets revenue from your ticket is irrelevant; there are plenty of cases where it is perfectly valid to travel with an operator that will not receive any of your money.

The only question is whether your TfGM pass has any conditions excluding its use in non-stop combination with another ticket. You'll need to take a look at any conditions that you were referred to when you were issued or applied for the pass. So long as it doesn't, this is a valid combination and you can take XC and Avanti services that run non-stop through Bramhall.

Many Thanks for that, I’ll have good look through the conditions of the TFGM pass.

 

[Haywain]

The only question is whether your TfGM pass has any conditions excluding its use in non-stop combination with another ticket. You'll need to take a look at any conditions that you were referred to when you were issued or applied for the pass. So long as it doesn't, this is a valid combination and you can take XC and Avanti services that run non-stop through Bramhall.

There may also be restrictions on which operators accept the pass for travel, so that should also be checked.

 

[petemarconi]

There may also be restrictions on which operators accept the pass for travel, so that should also be checked.

I’ve used the pass on every operator between Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly, had it checked and scanned and never had a problem, so would presume it’s valid on all ToC’s .

I’ve checked the T & C’s on the TFGM website, but unsurprisingly it makes no reference to through journey validity , I’ve emailed TFGM for an answer, quoted in excess of 5 days for a response.

I’ve used the pass on every operator between Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly, had it checked and scanned and never had a problem, so would presume it’s valid on all ToC’s .

I’ve checked the T & C’s on the TFGM website, but unsurprisingly it makes no reference to through journey validity , I’ve emailed TFGM for an answer, quoted in excess of 5 days for a response.

Received this (quite rapid) reply from TFGM :

“Thank you for contacting Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM). The answer to your query can be hard to explain in writing but I will try and do so in a clear way.

If you have purchased the Tram & Train Addon to your pension age pass you can use it for train travel within the Greater Manchester boundaries. You can see maps of this boundary at http://tfgm.com/public-transport/train/ticket-area-map

If you wish to travel beyond those boundaries then provided that the train you are on stops at the last station within the boundary, your pass covers this journey. This is because you are essentially getting off the train and reboarding it again with a seperate ticket for your onward journey outside of the boundary. This is because you're making two seperate journeys (albeit you would likely not actually physically leave and reboard the train).

If however, you are on an express service that does not stop at that boundaried station, then the rail operators would expect you to purchase a ticket for the whole journey including the Greater Manchester part. This is because you would be on a service that was not capable of being broken into those two parts. So please do be careful to make sure your train actually stops there.

I hope that explanation helps but please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need anything further.

Once again, thank you for your query. If you wish to speak to us in relation to your comments, please call a member of our Customer Support team on 0161 244 1000. For opening times…”


Does this sound like a genuine TFGM exception to the normal ‘Boundary’ rule that allows travel on a non stopping train ? or maybe something they’ve been given by possibly ringing Avanti or CC - who would obviously have a vested interest in denying such travel

 

[Watershed]

I’ve used the pass on every operator between Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly, had it checked and scanned and never had a problem, so would presume it’s valid on all ToC’s .

I’ve checked the T & C’s on the TFGM website, but unsurprisingly it makes no reference to through journey validity , I’ve emailed TFGM for an answer, quoted in excess of 5 days for a response.


Received this (quite rapid) reply from TFGM :

“Thank you for contacting Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM). The answer to your query can be hard to explain in writing but I will try and do so in a clear way.

If you have purchased the Tram & Train Addon to your pension age pass you can use it for train travel within the Greater Manchester boundaries. You can see maps of this boundary at http://tfgm.com/public-transport/train/ticket-area-map

If you wish to travel beyond those boundaries then provided that the train you are on stops at the last station within the boundary, your pass covers this journey. This is because you are essentially getting off the train and reboarding it again with a seperate ticket for your onward journey outside of the boundary. This is because you're making two seperate journeys (albeit you would likely not actually physically leave and reboard the train).

If however, you are on an express service that does not stop at that boundaried station, then the rail operators would expect you to purchase a ticket for the whole journey including the Greater Manchester part. This is because you would be on a service that was not capable of being broken into those two parts. So please do be careful to make sure your train actually stops there.

I hope that explanation helps but please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need anything further.

Once again, thank you for your query. If you wish to speak to us in relation to your comments, please call a member of our Customer Support team on 0161 244 1000. For opening times…”


Does this sound like a genuine TFGM exception to the normal ‘Boundary’ rule that allows travel on a non stopping train ? or maybe something they’ve been given by possibly ringing Avanti or CC - who would obviously have a vested interest in denying such travel

It sounds like the person who has responded to you isn't familiar with the NRCoT. Now, to be fair, I don't think you can expect council employees to be familiar with the intricacies of rail companies' terms and conditions - but they haven't really answered your question.

I would get back to them, thanking them for their answer, quote the relevant section of the NRCoT (14.3) and ask them to clarify whether they are suggesting that your GM pass falls under condition 14.1 ("some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets"), and if so, whether they could please cite the relevant terms and conditions of the pass.

If they can't cite any such condition, I think you will have to assume that they are simply making this restriction up - as NRCoT 14.1 says, any restriction on non-stop splits must be "made clear in the terms and conditions" in order to apply.

 

[scrapy]

No need to get back to TFGM. The pass if purchased with an appropriate Bramhall to Macclesfield single or return will be valid. There is no need to seek TFGMs permission. The TFGM pass is valid on all TOCs in the published TFGM area. The only exception would be if TFGM changed the terms of the pass that it was only valid on Cross-country and Avanti as far as Stockport, which they haven't.

 

[petemarconi]

No need to get back to TFGM. The pass if purchased with an appropriate Bramhall to Macclesfield single or return will be valid. There is no need to seek TFGMs permission. The TFGM pass is valid on all TOCs in the published TFGM area. The only exception would be if TFGM changed the terms of the pass that it was only valid on Cross-country and Avanti as far as Stockport, which they haven't.

Thanks for your reply and info.

As mentioned I occasionally travel this route and the ability to use a (day) return ticket Bramhall to Macclesfield on the fast Stockport to Macclesfield trains outweighs the small cost saving of using a couple of (railcard) Northern advances between Stockport and Macclesfield.

It sounds like the person who has responded to you isn't familiar with the NRCoT. Now, to be fair, I don't think you can expect council employees to be familiar with the intricacies of rail companies' terms and conditions - but they haven't really answered your question.

I would get back to them, thanking them for their answer, quote the relevant section of the NRCoT (14.3) and ask them to clarify whether they are suggesting that your GM pass falls under condition 14.1 ("some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets"), and if so, whether they could please cite the relevant terms and conditions of the pass.

If they can't cite any such condition, I think you will have to assume that they are simply making this restriction up - as NRCoT 14.1 says, any restriction on non-stop splits must be "made clear in the terms and conditions" in order to apply.

Thanks, I’ve taken a screenshot of the relevant bit of the NRCoT just in case ..