Mainline steam with no diesels

[CTS1990]

Hi all,

I thoroughly enjoyed this recent footage of Galatea on a recent venture from London to Worcester:

What a wonderful sight to see a mainline steam rail tour with a near full rake of Mk1s and no diesel on the rear.

How much of a rarity is this nowadays? I am not a steam railtour expert, but I sense more stringent regulations might be imposed sooner rather than later…?

 

[Iskra]

It does look good, but I don't really have an issue with a diesel being present, it is a very sensible self-recovery ability. Although I appreciate diesel locomotion too, whereas some don't.

 

[zwk500]

Hi all,

I thoroughly enjoyed this recent footage of Galatea on a recent venture from London to Worcester:

What a wonderful sight to see a mainline steam rail tour with a near full rake of Mk1s and no diesel on the rear.

How much of a rarity is this nowadays? I am not a steam railtour expert, but I sense more stringent regulations might be imposed sooner rather than later…?

It's rare but entirely the operators choice. The lack of facilities to turn mean that a 2nd loco is required on most tours, and its cheaper and easier as well as giving recovery ability to leave the loco on the train than to run it light behind the train.

There's no NR or other regulations that force the use of a diesel except during periods of fire risk or when the train weight exceeds the permitted load for steam engines on a section of the route.

 

[Deepgreen]

The inclusion of a diesel is far more often for turning/shunting movements than for 'insurance' (except in autumn). In the case cited, the destination of Worcester offers a triangle for turning so no diesel was needed. For that reason it's more unusual to have no diesel these days, especially for tours originating in London where the train needs to be pulled back out of the terminus after arrival. Sometimes the availability of loco stabling convenient for the London terminus determines whether the diesel is taken along for the whole tour.

 

[zwk500]

Another reason for Diesels to accompany the train is to provide the Electric supply.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

If you run with Vacuum brake then a diesel is your get out of jail card, as very few FOC locos are fitted with it.
Pat

 

[railfan99]

Another reason for Diesels to accompany the train is to provide the Electric supply.

Doesn't at least one rail tour operator - West Coast Rail? - have a power van or similar to provide electrical needs?

Travelling on a tour without a diesel at the rear is also something I'd way prefer.

Track access charges are doubtless high in the UK, and operators of tours need to make a decent return given maintenance costs of steam/diesel locos and passenger cars, but surely with the high fares charged (Steam Dreams seems to be up to GBP165 for standard class) - operators could afford to run the diesel one section behind if the heating/electrical needs can be otherwise met?

It's annoying that UK tour operators rarely specify whether they intend to have steam alone, or with a diesel at the rear. Real Time Trains "may" help but its compilers often don't know the timetable until Network Rail approves it close to the date.

 

[zwk500]

Doesn't at least one rail tour operator - West Coast Rail? - have a power van or similar to provide electrical needs?

There is a generator van but there's not enough for every tour.

Track access charges are doubtless high in the UK, and operators of tours need to make a decent return given maintenance costs of steam/diesel locos and passenger cars, but surely with the high fares charged (Steam Dreams seems to be up to GBP165 for standard class) - operators could afford to run the diesel one section behind if the heating/electrical needs can be otherwise met?

Running the diesel light behind will incur a 2nd access charge for no revenue benefit, and it can't always stay only 1 section behind - e.g. The passenger charter might be able to slip ahead of a stopper, but when the diesel arrives 4 minutes later the stopper then takes priority and now the diesel is 1 train behind.
Running the diesel light may also require additional drivers, which substantially increases the costs.

It's annoying that UK tour operators rarely specify whether they intend to have steam alone, or with a diesel at the rear. Real Time Trains "may" help but its compilers often don't know the timetable until Network Rail approves it close to the date.

There are very few places where steam may operate unassisted. A look at the origin and destination on something like Open Train Times or Traksy may give an indication if it's feasible for steam to operate unassisted. However you can always feed back to tour operators that the presence or lack of diesel is a factor in you choosing which tours to book, especially from overseas.

However, sometimes operators plan for the diesel to be on the back and then it becomes possible to run without it, or the opposite is also true. It's not known until the times are planned, usually 4 weeks before the tour (although they may not appear in RTT until much closer to the date for various reasons).

I have once arranged for a tour that was booked to run with a diesel on the back to run without one for a small section (Blackpool - Preston), because the path for the main tour got a non-stop run through Preston and a very good path back to Crewe on the WCML.

 

[bleeder4]

The latest brochure from Vintage Trains mentions for each trip whether they plan to include a diesel or not. The CBS trip to Didcot, the 2 Lickey trips and the Welsh Marches trip are all planned to run without an accompanying diesel. In the case of the Lickey trips, you can already see the separate paths for the diesel in RTT, where it goes to Bromsgrove and then waits there in case it's called upon.

 

[Deepgreen]

There is a generator van but there's not enough for every tour.

Running the diesel light behind will incur a 2nd access charge for no revenue benefit, and it can't always stay only 1 section behind - e.g. The passenger charter might be able to slip ahead of a stopper, but when the diesel arrives 4 minutes later the stopper then takes priority and now the diesel is 1 train behind.
Running the diesel light may also require additional drivers, which substantially increases the costs.

There are very few places where steam may operate unassisted. A look at the origin and destination on something like Open Train Times or Traksy may give an indication if it's feasible for steam to operate unassisted. However you can always feed back to tour operators that the presence or lack of diesel is a factor in you choosing which tours to book, especially from overseas.

However, sometimes operators plan for the diesel to be on the back and then it becomes possible to run without it, or the opposite is also true. It's not known until the times are planned, usually 4 weeks before the tour (although they may not appear in RTT until much closer to the date for various reasons).

I have once arranged for a tour that was booked to run with a diesel on the back to run without one for a small section (Blackpool - Preston), because the path for the main tour got a non-stop run through Preston and a very good path back to Crewe on the WCML.

In almost all cases the rear diesel has a driver present (unless it is switched off completely) so there is no need for an extra driver if running light. I have seen a few tours where unassisted steam was promised and where there was a trailing diesel a section or so behind but the fares usually reflect the additional access charge, which, per passenger, is not huge. There are actually quite a few routes where unassisted steam is possible, and indeed operated, and these are more often circular routes where no shunting is required at the destination. That said, it's almost guaranteed that any steam tours from October to December will have a diesel for 'insurance' owing to leaf fall.

 

[zwk500]

In almost all cases the rear diesel has a driver present (unless it is switched off completely) so there is no need for an extra driver if running light.

It's rare but it does happen that running a separate diesel means Crew PNBs or route knowledge come into the equation.

I have seen a few tours where unassisted steam was promised and where there was a trailing diesel a section or so behind but the fares usually reflect the additional access charge, which, per passenger, is not huge. There are actually quite a few routes where unassisted steam is possible, and indeed operated, and these are more often circular routes where no shunting is required at the destination.

There's quite a few routes where a diesel is required at only one end, so it drags the ECS but it doesn't accompany the tour. It's rarer to have no diesel at all. Pretty much any circular route will not require a diesel.

Triangles that steam can use unassisted (i.e. including shunting the stock) include, but are not limited to: Hatton (for Stratford-upon-Avon), Bristol TM, Maindee (for Newport/Cardiff), Gloucester, Worcester, Farington (near Preston), Crewe, Carlisle, King Edward Bridge Jns/Tyne Yard (Both outside Newcastle), Norwich, Doncaster (Roberts Road/Down Decoy curve), Leeds (Whitehall/Engine Shed, this is rare though), Brewery Jn (Manchester Victoria), Castleford, Shrewsbury, Bescot, etc. Plymouth Laira may also be an option, not sure if it needs depot agreement though. It should be noted that many of these require reversing on a main line and therefore are not always used for capacity reasons. I think there may also be other turning options around Cardiff but can't remember if I planned tours over them
There are also turntables at York, Scarborough, Carnforth, Aberdeen, Yeovil and St Blazey, among others.

My experience in planning Steam tours for NR for around 2 years was that unassisted solo steam on passenger tours was very much less common than having a diesel in tow, even when it was perfectly feasible to do so. There were the odd tours with 2 locos, either double-heading or top/tail formation, with no diesel but the redundancy of the 2nd steam loco to cover in the event of failure.

That said, it's almost guaranteed that any steam tours from October to December will have a diesel for 'insurance' owing to leaf fall.

Also in the heat of summer it's quite often that a diesel will be planned in case of last-minute fire concerns. With diesel assistance the Steam loco doesn't have to be worked so hard and the crew can take more care trying to avoid sparks setting fire to the countryside.

 

[bleeder4]

Also in the heat of summer it's quite often that a diesel will be planned in case of last-minute fire concerns. With diesel assistance the Steam loco doesn't have to be worked so hard and the crew can take more care trying to avoid sparks setting fire to the countryside.

Just to reinforce that last point, there was a Tweet from Hereford & Worcester Fire Brigade on Saturday afternoon - https://twitter.com/hwfirecontrol/status/1627029459181137920?s=61&t=Rt1BE0W1oALeZGJngcYTPQ

 

[Intercity110]

It looks quite wrong

 

[Future]

Triangles that steam can use unassisted (i.e. including shunting the stock) include, but are not limited to: Hatton (for Stratford-upon-Avon), Bristol TM, Maindee (for Newport/Cardiff), Gloucester, Worcester, Farington (near Preston), Crewe, Carlisle, King Edward Bridge Jns/Tyne Yard (Both outside Newcastle), Norwich, Doncaster (Roberts Road/Down Decoy curve), Leeds (Whitehall/Engine Shed, this is rare though), Brewery Jn (Manchester Victoria), Castleford, Shrewsbury, Bescot, etc. Plymouth Laira may also be an option, not sure if it needs depot agreement though. It should be noted that many of these require reversing on a main line and therefore are not always used for capacity reasons. I think there may also be other turning options around Cardiff but can't remember if I planned tours over them
There are also turntables at York, Scarborough, Carnforth, Aberdeen, Yeovil and St Blazey, among others.

The Laira Triangle is used when the St Blazey turntable is not available (as it is currently). If the tour is advertised as running to Cornwall, a diesel often runs light behind or rides on the back until Plymouth where it will take them helm into Cornwall. When St Blazey turntable is available again (hopefully this year if all goes to plan) steam can return again to Cornwall.

 

[D6975]

There are more generator vans out there than people think....
LSL, WCRC, VSOE all have a generator van, Riviera Trains have 2

 

[Dave S 56F]

There was a unassisted private Vintage trains shareholder only tour doubleheader on Saturday 4 March with 7029 Clun castle and 5043 Earl of Mount edgcumbe to Didcot railway centre for a centenary event of the G.W.R. Castle class along side 5051 Drysllwyn Castle and 4079 Pendennis Castle