Making Merseyrail "turn up and go"

[AGH]

Do you think there is capacity within Merseyrail to make the system more akin to a metro system rather than specifically timetabled.

I think improvement at Central would be required for capacity but also more southern destinations on the Northern Line to enable through running? Perhaps turning around additional services at LSP to avoid any potential conflicts at Hunts Cross.

Would using the spare platform at James Street for more services during peak and again turning around additional services short for instance Hooton using the additional platform space in existence create capacity?

Historically there were semi fast services but I suspect that would require a fair bit of capacity being built in at key points?

I think need exists just how do you squeeze it out without having to find substantial funding

 

[Bertie the bus]

Except for Ellesmere Port it is turn up and go. If you turn up randomly at a station you will have to wait an average of 7 1/2 minutes or less for stations between Hooton / Birkenhead North / Kirkdale and Liverpool. I'm sure people can cope with that.

 

[AGH]

I did mean more frequently to increase capacity and options. Think there is opportunities missed

 

[Bertie the bus]

There is no need to increase capacity or options. A small number of peak services can get a bit cosy but off peak services certainly don't. The frequency is fine.

 

[The Planner]

I did mean more frequently to increase capacity and options. Think there is opportunities missed

A fair bit has signalling headways of 5 minutes or more, so you cant really run more than 8 or 9tph reliably. Then you need to factor in capacity at the terminii.

 

[urban]

I do think the frequency on the Central - Hunts Cross section isn't good enough. The 15 minute frequency (30 on Sundays) just isn't competitive with the 82 bus which runs almost parallel to the line, every 5 minutes or so.

Especially when Baltic station opens - it's projected to be one of the most used Merseyrail stations but I wonder if it can cope with that frequency.

 

[daodao]

In the first instance, the number of cancellations of existing services needs to be reduced. My niece, who commutes regularly from Town Green to Liverpool Central, mentioned yesterday that the number of cancellations has increased significantly since she started commuting on the Ormskirk line 3 years ago.

 

[Class15]

In the first instance, the number of cancellations of existing services needs to be reduced. My niece, who commutes regularly from Town Green to Liverpool Central, mentioned yesterday that the number of cancellations has increased significantly since she started commuting on the Ormskirk line 3 years ago.

I wonder what happened in those three years…

 

[Meerkat]

Unless you get to central London Tube frequency levels is 'turn up and go' so important in the smartphone era - doesn't everyone look up the train time.....if only to check that they haven't broken down or otherwise stopped running?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you get to central London Tube frequency levels is 'turn up and go' so important in the smartphone era - doesn't everyone look up the train time.....if only to check that they haven't broken down or otherwise stopped running?

I looked up the times for the Hamburg U Bahn when I lived there despite it being every 5 minutes. If I left when I saw the previous one crossing the bridge I'd walk onto the platform just as the next one was arriving. Journey times on foot for most people are consistent to the second.

There was talk of going to 5tph (less memorable though) but not heard much about that recently, suspect the 777s aren't reliable enough to tighten timings. Also I heard of issues with level crossings on the Southport line with an increase. Wouldn't want a Metrolink style lack of published timetable.

 

[Trainbike46]

Some parts of merseyrail are very much turn up and go, I never check times for travelling from Liverpool Central/Lime street to Birkenhead Hamilton Square, or the reverse.

On other sections timetables very much are needed though, such as from Chester to Birkenhead, which runs every 30 minutes - but to get that, and the other branches of the wirral lines, to a turn-up and go frequency would require rather unlikely frequencies on the Liverpool Loop, so I can't see it happening.

 

[urban]

Some parts of merseyrail are very much turn up and go, I never check times for travelling from Liverpool Central/Lime street to Birkenhead Hamilton Square, or the reverse.

On other sections timetables very much are needed though, such as from Chester to Birkenhead, which runs every 30 minutes - but to get that, and the other branches of the wirral lines, to a turn-up and go frequency would require rather unlikely frequencies on the Liverpool Loop, so I can't see it happening.

Chester - Liverpool is 4tph during the daytime, Ellesmere Port is only 2tph though. The loop actually used to run at much higher frequencies when it opened in the 70s (I believe it was something like 24tph in the peak, compared to 14tph now.)

 

[Trainbike46]

Chester - Liverpool is 4tph during the daytime, Ellesmere Port is only 2tph though. The loop actually used to run at much higher frequencies when it opened in the 70s (I believe it was something like 24tph in the peak, compared to 14tph now.)

I guess that is the consequence of only ever travelling to/from chester in the evening or early morning

If the loop used to be so much more frequent, why isn't every branch at least every 15 minutes, all day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chester - Liverpool is 4tph during the daytime, Ellesmere Port is only 2tph though. The loop actually used to run at much higher frequencies when it opened in the 70s (I believe it was something like 24tph in the peak, compared to 14tph now.)

Demand was higher then. Fewer cars but also the bus network was designed to complement rather than compete. With regulation we might see a move back this way, though.

 

[Kite159]

The one thing I would change with the Merseyrail timetable is keeping the 4tph running longer in the evenings, maybe to at least 21:00 if not later on Friday/Saturday nights.

As some of those trains when it has dropped to 2tph, especially from Chester when it connects with services from Holyhead (and elsewhere) can get very busy from the start.

 

[urban]

The one thing I would change with the Merseyrail timetable is keeping the 4tph running longer in the evenings, maybe to at least 21:00 if not later on Friday/Saturday nights.

As some of those trains when it has dropped to 2tph, especially from Chester when it connects with services from Holyhead (and elsewhere) can get very busy from the start.

Sundays should be 4tph as well in my opinion, at the very least on the Southport & Chester lines. 2tph might have been acceptable in the 80s when hardly anywhere was open, but Sundays seem to be almost as busy as a Saturday in Liverpool nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sundays should be 4tph as well in my opinion, at the very least on the Southport & Chester lines. 2tph might have been acceptable in the 80s when hardly anywhere was open, but Sundays seem to be almost as busy as a Saturday in Liverpool nowadays.

Southport classically was 4tph on Sundays, at least in summer when at its busiest. Very often 4tph at 6 car too.

 

[eldomtom2]

Unless you get to central London Tube frequency levels is 'turn up and go' so important in the smartphone era - doesn't everyone look up the train time.....if only to check that they haven't broken down or otherwise stopped running?

The advantage in "turn up and go" frequency isn't in not having to look up the schedule, it's in not having to plan journeys around the schedule.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Until COVID summer Sundays on the Chester line would run all 6 car formations so that at least the capacity matched other days. As 8 cars are still not enabled on the Chester line this has never come back.
As others have said, reliability is a higher priority - so you don't go to work and the find there are neither trains nor buses home because it has rained during the day. To be fair this is a Network Rail infrastructure issue, rather than Merseyrail.

If you want to fill in train intervals to 15 minutes, then would one unit shuttling between Platform 1 at Hooton and Ellesmere Port be enough? Probably more useful to use it to extend to Helsby however (on battery).

 

[Bertie the bus]

Demand was higher then. Fewer cars but also the bus network was designed to complement rather than compete. With regulation we might see a move back this way, though.

It would also have required far fewer trains than if that frequency existed now as Merseyrail only extended to Rock Ferry which is only 3 miles from Liverpool city centre.

If you want to fill in train intervals to 15 minutes, then would one unit shuttling between Platform 1 at Hooton and Ellesmere Port be enough? Probably more useful to use it to extend to Helsby however (on battery).

Apart from giving people who like uniformity a sense of satisfaction I don’t see what the point of such a shuttle would be. The reason Ellesmere Port services are only every 30 minutes is because it isn’t a very busy route.

 

[Trainbike46]

A shuttle would also likely be less popular than the current through service.

If frequency were to be improved, it should be a through service. Extending to Helsby also makes a lot of sense, whether frequency goes up or not.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Apart from giving people who like uniformity a sense of satisfaction I don’t see what the point of such a shuttle would be. The reason Ellesmere Port services are only every 30 minutes is because it isn’t a very busy route.

The logic was that a 30 minute shuttle interspersed with the existing 30 minute through trains would give a 15 minute service Ellesmere Port to Hooton overall, with connections into Chester line services in both directions at Hooton. I agree the loadings are low at the moment, but part of that may be the long connection times at Hooton for anyone needing to travel Ellesmere Port to Chester. In other words, the idea was to drive increased modal share between Ellesmere Port (low house prices, few jobs) and Chester (high house prices, many jobs).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The logic was that a 30 minute shuttle interspersed with the existing 30 minute through trains would give a 15 minute service Ellesmere Port to Hooton overall, with connections into Chester line services in both directions at Hooton. I agree the loadings are low at the moment, but part of that may be the long connection times at Hooton for anyone needing to travel Ellesmere Port to Chester. In other words, the idea was to drive increased modal share between Ellesmere Port (low house prices, few jobs) and Chester (high house prices, many jobs).

Would those people not just go by bus?

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Would those people not just go by bus?

Whenever I come through Hooton at peak times there is a crowd on the platform doing it - despite the limited service.

Looking at journey planners it takes the number 1 bus 45 minutes to do the trip. Merseyrail takes 43 minutes if you get a bad connection at Hooton but only 28 if you get a good one. Both run half hourly so I can see why the train gets market share if you start or end close to stations.

What is depressing is that the car time for the same journey is 15 minutes - and we wonder why 80% of commuters in Liverpool City Region commute by car ...

 

[Trainbike46]

As people reported above, the train to Chester runs every 15 minutes. Run the Ellesmere port train every 15 minutes as well (all the way to Liverpool and extend it to Helsby), and you'd have a much improved service for that area, as well as making all of Merseyrail every 15 minutes, with most of it much more frequent than that.

 

[Krokodil]

As people reported above, the train to Chester runs every 15 minutes. Run the Ellesmere port train every 15 minutes as well (all the way to Liverpool and extend it to Helsby), and you'd have a much improved service for that area, as well as making all of Merseyrail every 15 minutes, with most of it much more frequent than that.

This, but also extend the service hours for the full frequency to include evenings and Sundays.

 

[stacker]

As people reported above, the train to Chester runs every 15 minutes. Run the Ellesmere port train every 15 minutes as well (all the way to Liverpool and extend it to Helsby), and you'd have a much improved service for that area, as well as making all of Merseyrail every 15 minutes, with most of it much more frequent than that.

With Cheshire Oaks on the outskirts of Ellesmere Port, if the service was extended to Helsby that would enable people changing at Helsby to use the train, exspecially if they put a shuttle bus on from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks, relieving the traffic chaos.

 

[30907]

With Cheshire Oaks on the outskirts of Ellesmere Port, if the service was extended to Helsby that would enable people changing at Helsby to use the train, exspecially if they put a shuttle bus on from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks, relieving the traffic chaos.

With Cheshire Oaks having an hourly bus to Helsby, stopping close to the station, would a service via Ellesmere Port increase custom?

Are there, in fact, any outlets where a train plus train plus bus connection works?

 

[stacker]

With Cheshire Oaks having an hourly bus to Helsby, stopping close to the station, would a service via Ellesmere Port increase custom?

Are there, in fact, any outlets where a train plus train plus bus connection works?

Anything to reduce the congestion around The Oaks, I'm a local who lives close to the Oaks, sometimes it is quicker to go to the M53 town centre junction to travel South.

 

[Djgr]

Anything to reduce the congestion around The Oaks, I'm a local who lives close to the Oaks, sometimes it is quicker to go to the M53 town centre junction to travel South.

Of course you would need dedicated bus lanes for the buses to stop them being caught in the congestion.

Demand was higher then. Fewer cars but also the bus network was designed to complement rather than compete. With regulation we might see a move back this way, though.

In particular there were (almost) no buses through the Birkenhead (Queensway) tunnel. The current frequent double decker buses barely meet H+S requirements.