Manchester congestion

[leejayd]

Can the extra platform at Salford Crescent help with congestion ? last few times I’ve traveled on that through to Piccadilly has been held before and in Castlefield area.

L

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Can the extra platform at Salford Crescent help with congestion ?

it can’t make it worse I don’t think unlike Ordsall Chord.

 

[Watershed]

It won't hurt, but it will only be a sticking plaster given the fundamental problem that there are too many trains in the Manchester area.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It won't hurt, but it will only be a sticking plaster given the fundamental problem that there are too many trains in the Manchester area.

Especially through the Castlefield corridor.

 

[The Planner]

Its tinkering at the edges, it has its uses but you still have the single lead on the Manchester side.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Can the extra platform at Salford Crescent help with congestion ? last few times I’ve traveled on that through to Piccadilly has been held before and in Castlefield area.

The worst it could do is cause people longer walks to change train, but it will probably be very useful during disruption.
I've seen the Clitheroe - Rochdale hold up the Blackpool - Airport many times, and this extra platform would probably help with that.
It might make ending up in the "wrong" platform at Salford Crescent (both platforms are bi-directional) less likely.

 

[standish1]

Is there not a plan to build an extra platform using the avoiding line at Salford Crescent ?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is there not a plan to build an extra platform using the avoiding line at Salford Crescent ?

Yes and this thread exists due to that plan.
Plan was discussed in this thread.

 

[td97]

Clitheroe - Rochdale hold up the Blackpool - Airport

The Rochdale in turn usually held up by a late running Wigan to Leeds. The Clitheroe is Northern's most reliable service in the Manchester area and has enough pathing allowance to make up a few minutes of delay between Bolton and Salford.
The Salford Crescent improvement will help with turnaround in getting services platformed, as the route to the adjacent platform can be set once once MP510 has been cleared by the service in front.
It will also presumably create an operational requirement of an additional dispatcher. Often there is just 1 on the island which can cause delays if 2 services are departing simultaneously.

last few times I’ve traveled on that through to Piccadilly

The xx26 from Blackpool North (xx22 from Bolton) often misses its path at Castlefield, or is regulated if the Nottingham/Norwich EMR is slightly late on the CLC. Salford Crescent won't make a jot of difference about that problem.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The Rochdale in turn usually held up by a late running Wigan to Leeds. The Clitheroe is Northern's most reliable service in the Manchester area and has enough pathing allowance to make up a few minutes of delay between Bolton and Salford.

The Wigan - Leeds has a decent chunk of time timetabled to wait before they can enter Salford Crescent because it needs to wait for the Rochdale - Clitheroe that blocks the entry to Salford Crescent.

 

[The Planner]

The Rochdale in turn usually held up by a late running Wigan to Leeds. The Clitheroe is Northern's most reliable service in the Manchester area and has enough pathing allowance to make up a few minutes of delay between Bolton and Salford.
The Salford Crescent improvement will help with turnaround in getting services platformed, as the route to the adjacent platform can be set once once MP510 has been cleared by the service in front.
It will also presumably create an operational requirement of an additional dispatcher. Often there is just 1 on the island which can cause delays if 2 services are departing simultaneously.

Its because they all have two minutes engineering allowance approaching Salford which you can't get rid of. The pathing allowance is to keep the Clitheroe behind the Wigan service. The new platform will just transfer that into a larger dwell unless the timetable is changed.

 

[furnessvale]

Especially through the Castlefield corridor.

Not too many trains, just not enough track!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not too many trains, just not enough track!

Merseyrail, the Lizzie and Thameslink (reasonably) reliably put far more through a two track railway than that does. It's in part the type of service - excessively short DMUs, varying door layouts and imported delays - that makes it not work.

 

[furnessvale]

Merseyrail, the Lizzie and Thameslink (reasonably) reliably put far more through a two track railway than that does. It's in part the type of service - excessively short DMUs, varying door layouts and imported delays - that makes it not work.

Partially agree. The three examples you quote all benefit from fixed formations and to some extent, exclusive use of track. Castlefield is different, including freight. If we can't fit in all the trains that customers need, the answer is not an Andy Burnham cut to services, but an increase in capacity, even if that means sending freight west to a new link on the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Partially agree. The three examples you quote all benefit from fixed formations and to some extent, exclusive use of track. Castlefield is different, including freight. If we can't fit in all the trains that customers need, the answer is not an Andy Burnham cut to services, but an increase in capacity, even if that means sending freight west to a new link on the WCML.

There are basically two options, unless you're going to spend an absolute fortune 4-tracking it and providing flyovers for Ordsall Lane and the Chord.

1. Move the long distance services elsewhere, and turn it into something a lot more like Merseyrail, the Lizzie or Thameslink, as indeed it basically was up until the 1990s.
2. Move the local services elsewhere, and turn it into a long distance only piece of infrastructure.

Freight is a bit neither here nor there as there isn't much of it - one or two paths an hour maybe? (checks Realtime Trains - it's about that).

(1) was (sort of) being pursued as policy by way of Northern Powerhouse Rail and the Fiddler's Ferry line, and nominally still is but feels a bit in doubt at the moment.

This isn't a speculative thread so here isn't the place for it, but there have been plenty in the past regarding how an "S-Bahn-Manchester" basically copying the Merseyrail Northern Line might look.

Edit: this thread would be suitable for further speculative discussion, I will copy this post there.

Potential ways round the Castlefield problem

With the problems outlined on the other thread about putting London trains through Castlefield to join up with Scotland services, what possible ways are there around this to allow through running between north and south Manchester without impacting on reliability, or at least providing Bolton...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Taunton]

Merseyrail, the Lizzie and Thameslink (reasonably) reliably put far more through a two track railway than that does. It's in part the type of service - excessively short DMUs, varying door layouts and imported delays - that makes it not work.

I have found the same. The main cause seemed to be notably short trains for the numbers travelling, and tight door layouts, quite apparent at Piccadilly 13/14, so it takes longer than the allowance to get everyone off and on, particularly if crowded. Intermediate stops by short trains at long platforms are just time consuming.

Dispatch also seems lethargic, more concerned with shouting into infinity than getting everyone on and away. May be a Manchester thing, but nobody seemed pleased to see all these customers still for their service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other problem is crew changes at Oxford Road. I'm fairly sure Thameslink wouldn't try doing them at City Thameslink, the Lizzie wouldn't at Farringdon and Merseyrail wouldn't at Moorfields.