Manchester - Preston TPE

[Starmill]

I'm not that sure if there is anything new to be said here, but in light of the ongoing discussion in johntea's thread Revenue protection took my details - Unstaffed station I thought I should report that I recently opened a dispute with First TransPennine Express. I was travelling from a station south of Manchester to one east of Preston. I boarded a Northern service at an unstaffed station which arrived around 6 minutes late at Manchester Piccadilly on platform 14. The TPE service to Blackpool North was due just a few minutes later and I clearly did not have time to go up the stairs, over the bridge, down to the 'STM' ticket sales point to queue for a ticket and then get back before it departed.

I boarded the TPE service which was rather overcrowded until Buckshaw Parkway. After departure from there was the first the guard was able to get through the train - I had my railcard and an RTV to cover just less than the value of the fare I wanted on the table in front of me, and asked to buy a ticket. I mentioned the station I had come from, but the guard replied by asking where I had boarded his train, to which I said Manchester Piccadilly. In that case, he replied, you cannot use your railcard and you will need an Anytime Day Single from Manchester to Preston, rather than the Off-Peak Day Return I had actually requested. I was initially confused and thought this was based on some sort of erroneous understanding of evening peak restrictions on his part, but the guard wanted to know why I hadn't bought a ticket when I had a chance. I pointed out that I had not had a chance to do so. The guard disagreed, insisting that the first opportunity to pay is the first station your train stops at that has an open ticket office. I attempted to disagree politely but he clearly wasn't going to sell me the ticket I wanted and became somewhat intimidating. I emphasised the point that I would have had to delay my journey in order to buy a ticket and that I was willing to pay the fare I'd asked for. The guard seemed to think that you must actually get off a train if it stops at a station with a ticket office and go to buy a ticket if you don't have one, then wait for the next train, on the basis that you can never use railcards for tickets purchased onboard.

I also got lots of dirty looks from other people on the train - which seems to be a phenomenon unique to my experience. This 'discussion' continued until the train arrived at Preston following which the guard skulked off to open the doors and I went and bought the ticket I wanted from Preston ticket office. Frankly I'm concerned about where these ideas come from. It would be nice if we had something a bit more concrete that there is no requirement to delay one's journey. What would also be nice is if TPE guard's whose announcements include 'First TransPennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, therefore only standard full-fare tickets are available for purchase onboard this service' were as aware of what they were talking about as they sound. Most people would clearly have given in and paid the £11.70.

 

[Merseysider]

So by giving you the benefit of the doubt, he'd have collected a fare of £5-10.
By arguing, he collected £0.

Incredible.

 

[Starmill]

For clarity, the fare I wanted cost less than that, that was the price of a Manchester - Preston (not even where I was going, or had come from and only a single) SDS.

 

[Merseysider]

For clarity, the fare I wanted cost less than that, that was the price of a Manchester - Preston (not even where I was going, or had come from and only a single) SDS.

I think he misunderstood the conditions that applied to your circumstance, rather than anything more sinister. Yet I am pleased you stood your ground and hopefully the response from TPE will clarify/confirm your entitlement to the full range of fares from an unstaffed station. In my view whether the connection is official or not is irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

Let us know how you get on.

Be sure to escalate the matter to Passenger Focus if necessary.

I experienced a similar attitude by a XC Guard a few weeks ago, in similar circumstances. He refused to sell me the ticket but wasn't interested in checking tickets anyway, so I just got the ticket on the next train, where the Guard was more than happy to take my RTV and issue me with the correct ticket.

There are a small minority of Guards who think passengers who board at unstaffed stations should be compelled to delay their journeys. We need the Train Companies to make it clear to their staff that they must not do this.

 

[Camden]

The guard disagreed, insisting that the first opportunity to pay is the first station your train stops at that has an open ticket office.

Assuming you can't press your contactless payment card against the window of the train as it pulls into the station, I think only an objectionable pedant could describe the first station call as an "opportunity to pay". It would make for an interesting commute for many. As unstaffed stations with no ticket machines are typically on lines which have few trains, a short commute of say 20 minutes could become 1 hour and 20 minutes (journey to next staffed station, get off, buy ticket and wait for next train), hardly competitive with car travel, hardly user friendly (in fact you may as well close the unstaffed station completely), hardly common sense, and I think anyone who would advocate that position needs a stern talking to. I think it's also unreasonable to expect any traveller in these circumstances to miss a connection, again it doesn't make for a reliable commute and can lengthen a journey considerably (a delay for which you won't be compensated for under the delay rules, further exacerbating the injustice).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So by giving you the benefit of the doubt, he'd have collected a fare of £5-10.
By arguing, he collected £0.

Incredible.

And absent any RPIs at Preston, many people would just have walked away rather than going to the ticket office to purchase.

 

[Starmill]

Of course. The guard did an incredibly poor job of trying to protect revenue from that front too, as there would have been cheaper tickets I could have bought from the ticket office at Preston (who wouldn't see otherwise but to offer me the same range as everyone else), that would have cost less and allowed be to complete the journey, by not paying for the bit I'd already undertaken.

Of course, I just bought the ticket I wanted originally which covered my whole journey, but it would have been just as easy to do that as it would to walk out without paying!

 

[gray1404]

Please let us know how you get on with this. This attitude is totally unacceptable. Please post to the thread again when you have heard back from TPE. Also, do escalate to Passenger Focus if needed.

yorkie: have you contacted XC about your experience?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think he misunderstood the conditions that applied to your circumstance, rather than anything more sinister. Yet I am pleased you stood your ground and hopefully the response from TPE will clarify/confirm your entitlement to the full range of fares from an unstaffed station. In my view whether the connection is official or not is irrelevant.

Let us know how you get on.

Be sure to escalate the matter to Passenger Focus if necessary.

I experienced a similar attitude by a XC Guard a few weeks ago, in similar circumstances. He refused to sell me the ticket but wasn't interested in checking tickets anyway, so I just got the ticket on the next train, where the Guard was more than happy to take my RTV and issue me with the correct ticket.

There are a small minority of Guards who think passengers who board at unstaffed stations should be compelled to delay their journeys. We need the Train Companies to make it clear to their staff that they must not do this.

The impression that you must delay your journey comes from TPE itself, in particular the revenue protection department, who tell conductors that.

 

[Merseysider]

The impression that you must delay your journey comes from TPE itself, in particular the revenue protection department, who tell conductors that.

That is surely revenue-negative as customer relations would then have to start paying out (eg) 50% of the fare paid for missing the planned train due to lack of purchasing facilities.

Perhaps it is another one of those grey areas that there will never be consensus on.

 

[yorkie]

This needs fighting every step of the way. Involve Transport Focus if TPE don't respond positively.

I recall johntea had a similar case against TPE. He was overcharged, and it took a lot of effort to get his money back.

That is surely revenue-negative as customer relations would then have to start paying out (eg) 50% of the fare paid for missing the planned train due to lack of purchasing facilities.

That won't bother them, plus they'll probably deny the claim. Who are they going to be scared of? There's no ombudsman with any real teeth to do anything about them!

Perhaps it is another one of those grey areas that there will never be consensus on.

It's not a grey area as far as I'm concerned!

 

[Merseysider]

This needs fighting every step of the way. Involve Transport Focus if TPE don't respond positively.

I recall johntea had a similar case against TPE. He was overcharged, and it took a lot of effort to get his money back.


That won't bother them, plus they'll probably deny the claim. Who are they going to be scared of? There's no ombudsman with any real teeth to do anything about them!

It's not a grey area as far as I'm concerned!

Wait, do we even have an ombudsman?! Passenger Focus don't count!

And I agree that the passenger should not be penalised.

Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey.
...
You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open and
there were no self- service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order

On reflection, it's actually pretty clear-cut

 

[222007]

There are a small minority of Guards who think passengers who board at unstaffed stations should be compelled to delay their journeys. We need the Train Companies to make it clear to their staff that they must not do this.

I remember my training we were told that if a station is unstaffed we are effectively there ticket office. Never have i refused to sell someone a ticket in this situation sadly this is not always the attitude of some Conductors/RPI's and gives those good ones amongst us a bad name

 

[bunnahabhain]

Frankly I'm concerned about where these ideas come from. It would be nice if we had something a bit more concrete that there is no requirement to delay one's journey. What would also be nice is if TPE guard's whose announcements include 'First TransPennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, therefore only standard full-fare tickets are available for purchase onboard this service' were as aware of what they were talking about as they sound.

It is concrete and you were in the right to request a ticket, as part of when I determine if somebody is entitled to the full range of fares I always ask if they've travelled in on another service. Recently I sold a ticket out of Oxenholme, the passenger was on her third train of her journey and her previous two had been by Transpennine Express, I offered her the full range of tickets based on her honesty and that I have no local knowledge of TVM availability or booking office opening hours for Oxenholme, if in doubt do the right thing!

 

[island]

A lot also comes down to how the passenger conducts himself vis a vis the guard, on a scale between consulting him on the platform (where viable), through actively seeking him out, having money/card in hand when he approaches, and down to feigning sleep/hiding in the bog.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It suggests that there's something desperately wrong with the way revenue allocation and/or franchising and/or subsidy works, such that spurning customers through horrendous customer service simply isn't something TPE are worried about at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot also comes down to how the passenger conducts himself vis a vis the guard, on a scale between consulting him on the platform (where viable), through actively seeking him out, having money/card in hand when he approaches, and down to feigning sleep/hiding in the bog.

How much this matters varies between TOCs - it's been said that TPE check conductors' sales to ensure they never sell off-peak tickets starting from stations from which tickets can theoretically be bought, which would definitely attenuate the scope for the application of such discretion - particularly if, worryingly, they apparently consider a call at a previous staffed station as an opportunity to buy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It suggests that there's something desperately wrong with the way revenue allocation and/or franchising and/or subsidy works, such that spurning customers through horrendous customer service simply isn't something TPE are worried about at all.

Well, they are not exactly short of passengers. My experience as a passenger (one who always has a valid ticket, so I haven't been on the thick end of any revenue protection policy) is that they are institutionally arrogant and unhelpful from top to bottom (with, as you might expect, a number of front-line staff who buck the trend and are helpful). I now try to avoid them for Barrow runs and time my journeys for Northern services where possible.

 

[Starmill]

The impression that you must delay your journey comes from TPE itself, in particular the revenue protection department, who tell conductors that.

Yet another compliacting factor is that the stations that are unstaffed or part time are generally managed by Northern, because they don't want to either install a machine or staff their ticket office for more useful hours than a single-manned single-shift per day can offer. But it is generally TPE's conductors, rather than Northern's who quibble this sort of thing in what appears to be an unfair way.

 

[ainsworth74]

There was some confusion about what was being discussed so I've split out the discussion around johntea's issue back to its original thread which can be found here. This thread should be used for discussion around starmill's issue with TPE between Manchester and Preston.