Mersey Rail - Out of Court Settlement (ADVICE NEEDED)

[AliC02]

Hi, so I would just like to post this to see if anyone can offer up any advice on my situation

Me and my girlfriend were travelling to Liverpool Central from Ormskirk, we had bought tickets on our phones from Trainline unbeknownst to us that our ticket on trainline had to be a physical copy that we had to print out using the machine, (you get a code from trainline to type into the machine and it prints it out for you), anyway we get to the Liverpool Central tolls and we show the inspector we have bought tickets however we just hadn't printed them out he lets us go past however instructs us to go into the office to get them printed out. Me and my girlfriend go into the shop to get it printed out and go on the machine however, on first glance I couldn't figure it out so I just suggest we leave as it's not like we're dodging the fare as we've already bought tickets however do not have a physical copy. As soon as we leave the office we're met by two undercover inspectors that split us apart and ask for details. I refuse to hand over details and elected to speak to the police about the matter as opposed to speaking to Merseyrail. The police take all of my details and want my version of events, which I told an un-bias and truthful story of how we have paid for tickets however need to get them printed out, I told them we couldn't figure out how to do it on the machine so just left, however we are making a return journey later that night so we were at some point going to have to print our tickets out and decided to just figure it out later. After co-operation from my side the police were happy to just let me go in and print the ticket out. Anyhow, whilst this was going on my girlfriend had been speaking to Merseyrail and she had handed all of her details over and received a £125 fine from being in breach of Merseyrail Byelaw Section 18.2. I have been online to see if we can appeal this fine as we are students and don't have the money to pay this however when I put in the reference and surname I get the prompt "Cannot find a notice issued by Merseyrail with a notice number of [REFERENCE] and a last name of [SURENAME]. Check the details are correct and try again." - so I am assuming this type of fine cannot be appealed because all of the details are in fact correct.

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? We both had proof that we bought tickets on our phones so it just seems crazy to us that she got fined

 

[AlterEgo]

You've not been Penalty Fared, it seems - have you got a copy of the notice?

This sounds like they are threatening to prosecute you for an offence, not a penalty fare. They appear to have you bang to rights however, leaving the station after being told you have to print the tickets out (this safeguards against them being refunded if you don't collect them).

 

[AliC02]

Thank you for your speedy reply, I will attach a photo of the notice, and yes unfortunately that is what I had thought, I personally was able to get out of any fine by speaking to the police, (making it a police matter rather than a civil matter), but my girlfriend did not. Your point however of them being safeguarded, well our tickets were return tickets so it meant that to get home, we would have HAD to print out our tickets at some point, to get back through the tolls. Yes I do understand now that we probably should've just figured it out there and then and will definitely not be making the same mistake

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is not a 'penalty fare': instead, it's Merseyrail offering your girlfriend the chance to make an out of court settlement. From Merseyrail's point of view, if she isn't happy with that then the way for her to resolve it is by letting the matter go to court, and then presenting her view to the magistrates. So there isn't actually a separate appeal mechanism.

And I have to say that this probably means that in practice your girlfriend will have to pay the out of court settlement. If the matter goes to court, then she will be convicted because as a matter of fact she did travel without having a valid ticket on her. The court will fine her - and it will probably amount to more than the £125. Your girlfriend could try writing to Merseyrail at the address at the top of the letter and making her case - but as you have surely noticed, there's quite a big university in Ormskirk. You won't be the only students travelling into Liverpool, some of whom will be fare-dodging. Merseyrail's sympathy will be very limited.

Of course, Merseyrail should recognise e-tickets. And you should be able to collect them from Merseyrail machines (almost uniquely. you can't - you need to collect them from the staffed ticket office). And they should use Penalty Fares with their built in appeal process. But all of these are moral arguments rather than ones that can be enforced in law. So essentially the choice is pay £125 now, or more as a fine later.

 

[JBuchananGB]

In practice, the tickets should have been collected from the Ormskirk ticket office before boarding the train. At Central they are quite lenient in cases like this, directing passengers to the shop to collect their tickets. However they watch such passengers, and if they make to leave the station without collecting the tickets, then they intercept them and impose penalties. There are signs at Merseyrail stations stating clearly that tickets bought online must be printed before boarding a train.

 

[185143]

Strictly speaking, they're being lenient in even letting you go and collect them. Merseyrail can and will issue Penalty Fares for not collecting tickets prior to travel. By that I mean the £50/£100+fare PFs, not what you have received.

I find it both interesting and, to be honest, a bit reassuring really that the Police effectively sided with you and allowed you to collect your tickets without penalty. Most reports we see on here where BTP have got involved seem to be them simply siding with with TOC staff regardless of circumstances.

 

[WesternLancer]

In practice, the tickets should have been collected from the Ormskirk ticket office before boarding the train. At Central they are quite lenient in cases like this, directing passengers to the shop to collect their tickets. However they watch such passengers, and if they make to leave the station without collecting the tickets, then they intercept them and impose penalties. There are signs at Merseyrail stations stating clearly that tickets bought online must be printed before boarding a train.

Yes, I recall other cases o the forum in the past when people were advised to go to the shop and print out tickets but then decided not to do so for whatever reason, and got caught up in the same situation as @AliC02 and girlfriend

Given the issues and the situation on Merseyrail here as described, there would seem little point in buying tickets on a phone from Trainline (or other retailer) as given they have to be collected / printed before boarding the train you may as well simply buy the ticket from the ticket office or any ticket machine that is available.

I very much fear that the best advice is to pay the sum demanded to resolve the matter, as other options will be more expensive. In saying this, the OP has my sympathy here.

The only other thing I can say is to never miss the chance to submit a legitimate Delay Repay claim if ever on a late train as a way of recouping money from the Railway to offset this expense.

 

[gray1404]

The staff were expecting you to go to the booking office and have a person print out the tickets at the manned counter. It sounds like you have gone to the ticket machine instead.

It is interesting that plain clothed inspectors often come up in cases like this.

I would advise you to pay the out of court settlement. You really should have had the tickets printed before departure at Ormskirk.

The only exception to this is if you purchase a Merseyrail day saver through their website. This can be shown as a PDF on your phone.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would the tickets have been subsequently auto-refunded by Trainline if they'd not been printed / collected / seemingly not been used?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Would the tickets have been subsequently auto-refunded by Trainline if they'd not been printed / collected / seemingly not been used?

No

 

[AlterEgo]

No

From Trainline:

If you haven't collected your ticket by the expiry date of the ticket, we'll automatically refund your ticket subject to our refund fee and our terms and conditions.

Tiered refund and exchange fees

UK train tickets Depending on your ticket type, you may be eligible for a refund or an exchange on your ticket. We charge a fee, based on your ticket value to do this. Ticket Value Refund/Exchange Fee Up to £1.99 No fee £2 to £2.99 £...

support.thetrainline.com

 

[skyhigh]

No

I don't think you can say that with such clarity.

Trainline do auto-refund ToD bookings that are not collected under certain circumstances.

 

[fandroid]

I don't think you can say that with such clarity.

Trainline do auto-refund ToD bookings that are not collected under certain circumstances.

And Merseyrail staff use that as a reason for not just accepting the reference number as proof of having paid. Trainline's sliding scale of refund fees means that those avoiding the printout of the tickets can effectively pay a discounted fare

 

[island]

It's an offence to join a train without a ticket, or fail to show tickets on request, when you've started your journey at a station with ticketing facilities.

An online purchase confirmation is not a ticket, and failing to collect your tickets opens the possibility that they will get refunded.

The £125 will need to be paid as otherwise the passenger will be prosecuted and convicted, ending up with a fine of several multiples of the amount now due.