Merseyrail Class 777 not going to fit at some stations

[shakey1961]

Hi, apologies if this is the wrong section.

In the local Southport newspaper, they are reporting that Southport station is likely going to have some major problems. Platforms need extending and track layout will need altering as 8 car sets will not cross the points enabling them to be changed, so Network Rail are going to have to move them.

Sounds like fun!

 

[507 001]

Similar issues at Liverpool Central, New Brighton and West Kirby. I suspect Kirkby and Ormskirk might be similar too.

 

[shakey1961]

And what bright spark didn't realise that before the trains were designed and built?

 

[Tio Terry]

And what bright spark didn't realise that before the trains were designed and built?

Who ordered the trains? TOC or DfT?

 

[shakey1961]

Merseytravel I believe so partly the TOC and the overarching group who run travel over Merseyside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Platforms will NOT need extending - the whole point of the slightly odd door layout is that the passenger doors will all fit on an 80m platform.

There are however some places where track layouts/signal positions may be an issue, but Liverpool Central (for reversing) was the only one I had heard of prior to this thread.

 

[shakey1961]

I've been asked to put a reference to the external source. This is the best I can do.

https://www.champnews.com/papers/ select the latest issue on the left and click four times on the right arrow to get to page 8-9

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been asked to put a reference to the external source. This is the best I can do.

https://www.champnews.com/papers/ select the latest issue on the left and click four times on the right arrow to get to page 8-9

The Champion, crikey, the heart of investigative journalism! (I used to shove that through nearly 200 doors for a fiver a week when I was a kid!)

 

[childwallblues]

I heard of this problem. Also I was told that it is proposed to retain up to 10 Class 507/508 for peak hour trains!

 

[507 001]

Platforms will NOT need extending - the whole point of the slightly odd door layout is that the passenger doors will all fit on an 80m platform.

There are however some places where track layouts/signal positions may be an issue, but Liverpool Central (for reversing) was the only one I had heard of prior to this thread.

The original rumours were that it would just be a problem at Central, but West Kirby and New Brighton are also now being mentioned, odd door layout or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The original rumours were that it would just be a problem at Central, but West Kirby and New Brighton are also now being mentioned, odd door layout or not.

I'm not disputing there may be a further signal placing issue at those, just that the platforms need extending. I did of course mean a 60m platform, by the way.

 

[whoosh]

An odd ofset emergency door at the front of the units too. Surely this renders being able to access the other unit in an emergency impossible as they wouldn't line up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

An odd ofset emergency door at the front of the units too. Surely this renders being able to access the other unit in an emergency impossible as they wouldn't line up?

It isn't for accessing the other unit, it's for accessing the track. It might not even be possible to open it without the steps (anyone know)?

Presumably a train to train evacuation would be done to one on the other line, not end-on (same as any non-gangwayed unit).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

All the locations mentioned so far are either termini or de-facto termini, so possibly signal sightings and point locations for reversing services causing the issue...

You'd think somebody in a position to do something about it might've seen this coming, mind!

 

[HSTEd]

To what extent is it going to be necessary to operate double units though?

 

[jamesst]

The Champion, crikey, the heart of investigative journalism! (I used to shove that through nearly 200 doors for a fiver a week when I was a kid!)

They're not so far off the mark, the many problems have been a widely known secret for ages.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They've only just finished a round of platform alterations, mainly on the Wirral.
Green Lane southbound was closed for weeks while they rebuilt the platform.
At Chester they said issues had come to light after previous changes which needed a week's closure to fix.
They've still got a year to sort it out, but track and signalling changes are always troublesome.

 

[L401CJF]

Ive been reading into this myself, and for the life of me can't understand why they havnt used some common sense before they ordered them.

Its clear at the moment 3 car trains are not big enough and there arn't enough to provide full 6 car service. To future proof the network there should be no doubling up at all, but rather every new train should have been ordered to the same length of a current 6 car 507/8 (or at least the biggest they can be to fit every platform) - like on every other metro in the world where all the trains are the length of every platform. That way there would be no such thing as a double up, every train would be running with maximum capacity which would encourage people to use the train, and solve problems for the long term.

Recently they have been going on about how passenger numbers have shot up and how stations such as Liverpool Central are close to being unable to cope - surely they should have looked at passenger growth and bought trains that will be big enough for years to come - not ones that will be big enough for now but only when doubled up thus moving the same issue we have now a few years into the future, oh and we will have to alter the track layouts in a number of places to fit!

The mind boggles.

 

[73001]

Ive been reading into this myself, and for the life of me can't understand why they havnt used some common sense before they ordered them.

Its clear at the moment 3 car trains are not big enough and there arn't enough to provide full 6 car service. To future proof the network there should be no doubling up at all, but rather every new train should have been ordered to the same length of a current 6 car 507/8 (or at least the biggest they can be to fit every platform) - like on every other metro in the world where all the trains are the length of every platform. That way there would be no such thing as a double up, every train would be running with maximum capacity which would encourage people to use the train, and solve problems for the long term.

Recently they have been going on about how passenger numbers have shot up and how stations such as Liverpool Central are close to being unable to cope - surely they should have looked at passenger growth and bought trains that will be big enough for years to come - not ones that will be big enough for now but only when doubled up thus moving the same issue we have now a few years into the future, oh and we will have to alter the track layouts in a number of places to fit!

The mind boggles.

I think finances were an issue here. Haven't these been purchased by Merseytravel rather than a Rosco. The cost of being sensible and adding a couple of carriages to every unit wasnt achievable with the money available.

 

[L401CJF]

I think finances were an issue here. Haven't these been purchased by Merseytravel rather than a Rosco. The cost of being sensible and adding a couple of carriages to every unit wasnt achievable with the money available.

Yes I believe Merseytravel have bought them, which leads me to ask the question - why? Are there any other PTEs or similar which have bought the trains that operate within their area?

 

[73001]

Yes I believe Merseytravel have bought them, which leads me to ask the question - why? Are there any other PTEs or similar which have bought the trains that operate within their area?

Their ambition is to own/manage the whole lot, trains, track, stations etc as a self contained lot.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes I believe Merseytravel have bought them, which leads me to ask the question - why? Are there any other PTEs or similar which have bought the trains that operate within their area?

In the past West Yorkshire PTE owned the 7 class 155s and 10 class 144 middle cars, not aware of any other examples. They're now owned by Porterbrook.

 

[507021]

In the past West Yorkshire PTE owned the 7 class 155s and 10 class 144 middle cars, not aware of any other examples. They're now owned by Porterbrook.

Didn't they own the 158/9s as well?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive been reading into this myself, and for the life of me can't understand why they havnt used some common sense before they ordered them.

Its clear at the moment 3 car trains are not big enough and there arn't enough to provide full 6 car service. To future proof the network there should be no doubling up at all, but rather every new train should have been ordered to the same length of a current 6 car 507/8 (or at least the biggest they can be to fit every platform) - like on every other metro in the world where all the trains are the length of every platform. That way there would be no such thing as a double up, every train would be running with maximum capacity which would encourage people to use the train, and solve problems for the long term.

My personal view is that they should have ordered 5 x 20m (or Stadler equivalent) with no doubling up. With a Class 700 style interior you could get away without the 6th and 6-car Merseyrail trains are rarely full.

Um, isn't there a small fleet of exactly that about to go spare?

On your point about other metros, though, this is by no means universal. Most German S-Bahnen are 3x24m ish trains and operate as Kurzzug (3 car), Langzug (9 car) and whatever they call a 6 car set, I forget. U-Bahnen tend to vary lengths too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn't they own the 158/9s as well?

I don't believe so, but they were involved in ordering them. They initially wanted ten more 155s but the jigs had been destroyed (thank goodness!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Their ambition is to own/manage the whole lot, trains, track, stations etc as a self contained lot.

But having campaigned to get the infrastructure, they chickened out rather than negotiate with NR/DfT.
That was before NR replaced all the slab track on the Loop line.
Meanwhile, TfW (the WG agency, not the TOC) is poised to take over the Core Valley Lines from NR, so it can be done.

 

[M28361M]

Recently they have been going on about how passenger numbers have shot up and how stations such as Liverpool Central are close to being unable to cope - surely they should have looked at passenger growth and bought trains that will be big enough for years to come - not ones that will be big enough for now but only when doubled up thus moving the same issue we have now a few years into the future, oh and we will have to alter the track layouts in a number of places to fit.

My main concern remains that they are procuring 52 trains to replace a current fleet of 59, which I do not think is adequate to cope with anticipated growth in passenger numbers. There is an option for more trains to be added on to the order and I hope that is taken up.

On a related note, there is some fairly hefty engineering work coming up in January, with much of the Northern Line bustituted for two weekends:-

Saturday 11 January & Sunday 12 January

Rail replacement buses will be in operation between:

• Kirkby – Liverpool Central
• Aintree – Liverpool Central
• Hunts Cross – Seaforth & Litherland

Saturday 18 January

Rail replacement buses will be in operation between:

• Kirkby – Liverpool Central
• Walton – Liverpool Central
• Hunts Cross – Seaforth & Litherland

Sunday 19 January

Rail replacement buses will be in operation between:

• Liverpool Central - Sandhills
• Hunts cross – Sandhills

Is this 777 preparation works (perhaps alterations discussed in this thread), or something else?

 

[Skie]

The 3 cars on the Northern line are generally standing room only by the time they reach Liverpool Central between 8 and 10. And certain 6's are the same, or one cancelled train away from being unboardable. Similar thing happens with the evening peak going out of Liverpool. They've also stopped running an additional train at peak, which isn't helping things though I understand the spare unit is used to lengthen an existing service. Weekends are fairly heavily loaded throughout the daytime, with football matches, shoppers and tourists all cramming on.

Merseyrail are very lucky there are so many Civil Servants based in Liverpool as their flexible working hours help spread out the load. Its so close to breaking point at 5pm that if they suddenly all decided to work a regular 9-5 the system wouldn't cope and stations would need queue management and other measures.

The new 4 car trains have the same amount of seats as the 3 cars, so they're not going to fix the issues but will at least spread people out a bit and not cook them alive. Their faster acceleration will help by allowing the existing service to be run with fewer trains, but they'll definitely need to double up the trains as regularly as they are now.

 

[jamesst]

My main concern remains that they are procuring 52 trains to replace a current fleet of 59, which I do not think is adequate to cope with anticipated growth in passenger numbers. There is an option for more trains to be added on to the order and I hope that is taken up.

On a related note, there is some fairly hefty engineering work coming up in January, with much of the Northern Line bustituted for two weekends:-


Is this 777 preparation works (perhaps alterations discussed in this thread), or something else?

Just engineering work as far as I'm aware

 

[Dstock7080]

Ive been reading into this myself, and for the life of me can't understand why they havnt used some common sense before they ordered them.

To future proof the network there should be no doubling up at all, but rather every new train should have been ordered to the same length of a current 6 car 507/8 (or at least the biggest they can be to fit every platform) - like on every other metro in the world where all the trains are the length of every platform.

In London the S7 Stock were 6-metres longer than D Stock; platform extensions, signals moved, depots/sidings altered, and still ended up with SDO at stations. So it has been done.