Midnight Trains - Any progress?

[mike57]

I know Midnight Trains have aspirations to introduce an Edinburgh - Paris service, and this has been aired previously, e.g. here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sleepers-trains-from-london-to-europe.240500/ and here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...upports-10-cross-border-rail-projects.242783/

They have a pretty website, but it still seems short on detail: https://www.midnight-trains.com/en/home

So a few questions, they plan to introduce their first service next year according to their website, which route will this be and does anyone know how close they are to acheiving this.

They still have an Edinburgh - Paris route on their website, but has any meaningful progress been made on this route. Obvious issues are paths, rolling stock, and probably the thorniest of them all border control.

They seem to be aiming at a premium class travel so I assume passenger numbers would be lower, so would they be looking to do formalities on board? Maybe basic check by staff at boarding to weed out anyone who has forgotten their passport etc. as well.

What sort of fares will they be charging I wonder? If the Edinburgh - Paris service picked up in York it would be of interest to us.

Normally when we go on holiday we try to travel first class using advance tickets where possible, so currently a typical trip may be (per person, single)

York London £100
Overnight King X travel lodge 1/2 £120 = £60 (because there are two of us)
Evening meal £20
Eurostar standard premier to Gare du Nord £120

(Note: yes I know cheaper fares are available, this is just based on a recent trip with times to our convenience rather than cheapest fares)

So based on that if Midnight trains could do something in the £400-600 area I would be interested, but I have no idea where their price point will be? Convenience would be worth quite a bit.

 

[StephenHunter]

The European Commission have given them backing for Paris to Venice via Milan. As for rolling stock, believe they're going for new build. They send out a weekly email newsletter, but it's still short on detail.

 

[Bartsimho]

Just bringing this up again as I saw their Material today. I would guess they would run Edinburgh to St Pancras via the ECML as the old ECML to MML chord is now an ECML to CTRL chord. This would allow a pickup in London past the border controls at St Pancras although they would need controls at Waverley for that.

Thinking about timings maybe an 11:30pm departure from St Pancras as the last ES is at 11pm although it would still be pathed with SE services so could run 140mph instead of the full ES speed.

 

[zwk500]

I would be prepared to bet a reasonably large amount of money the route will be 'via LNER and Eurostar'. AFAIK there is no suitable stock cleared for operation through the Tunnel that could reach Edinburgh unless they get special dispensation for the 400m Eurostar to be a pain in the neck at Edinburgh (IIRC you do get 400m out of 19 & 2 used together).

 

[Bartsimho]

I would be prepared to bet a reasonably large amount of money the route will be 'via LNER and Eurostar'. AFAIK there is no suitable stock cleared for operation through the Tunnel that could reach Edinburgh unless they get special dispensation for the 400m Eurostar to be a pain in the neck at Edinburgh (IIRC you do get 400m out of 19 & 2 used together).

I'm guessing trains in the tunnel need to be a certain length which are then too long for other platforms in the UK?
Or is it that long trains are being used to financially justify the use of the tunnel.

I see Renfe want to maybe run some Paris-London services and DB got licenses to test in the tunnel so it might be easier to get tunnel certification for UK Electric stock. Maybe Loco and carriages?

 

[zwk500]

I'm guessing trains in the tunnel need to be a certain length which are then too long for other platforms in the UK?

Yes and no. A lot has been made of a '400m rule' which ensured that there was always at least one door on a train near a cross-passage in the Tunnel which are 375m apart. However this rule appears to have been relaxed in favour of a demonstrable survivability and evacuation requirement to align with EU standards. In theory, therefore, there is not a specific length so long as you can demonstrate the train is able to reach the portal or get everybody into the service tunnel within the time frames.
However, economically, you will want every last centimetre of the 400m length available at HS1 platforms to carry the maximum amount of passengers for this incredibly expensive operation. UK platforms are generally not much longer than 260m, to allow 10x 26m Car IETs to call. Edinburgh is unusual in having 2 IC-length platforms back-to-back with 1/20 and 2/19 (and 7/11), one of which may be >400m, but I haven't checked.

I see Renfe want to maybe run some Paris-London services and DB got licenses to test in the tunnel so it might be easier to get tunnel certification for UK Electric stock. Maybe Loco and carriages?

DB got a ICE3 through the tunnel but dead hauled, AIUI. However the e320 is the same platform (Siemens Velaro) as the new ICE trains so certification of that wouldn't be too hard.

Loco and carriages is certainly not prohibited - the original Nightstar would have been LHCS. However the carriages would need to satisfy the fire regs and evacuation protocol and you'd need a loco with all the systems and certificates (92s are the only loco that fit the bill right now).

 

[StephenHunter]

They've said they're going for loco and carriages. While they're being somewhat coy about who they've made a deal with in their email newsletters, I'm personally thinking they might have gone with the Polish company PESA.

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps they could couple an Edinburgh portion onto a London portion that had already been loading at St Pancras to make the best use of that full-length consist on HS1 and through the tunnel. If the Edinburgh set had a push-pull DVT on the point heading south with the loco pushing from the back then a simple couple-up and cab-change could suffice for an easy reversal. Maybe the full-length train could have a loco/power car at each end.

 

[Bartsimho]

Perhaps they could couple an Edinburgh portion onto a London portion that had already been loading at St Pancras to make the best use of that full-length consist on HS1 and through the tunnel. If the Edinburgh set had a push-pull DVT on the point heading south with the loco pushing from the back then a simple couple-up and cab-change could suffice for an easy reversal. Maybe the full-length train could have a loco/power car at each end.

Such a thing might also allow larger carriages as well as maybe HS1 is to European loading gauge as well so a St Pancras portion would allow that. (Don't know about how good it is to have 2 different loading gauges in the tunnel as I'm unsure about the freight arrangements).

 

[zwk500]

Such a thing might also allow larger carriages as well as maybe HS1 is to European loading gauge as well so a St Pancras portion would allow that. (Don't know about how good it is to have 2 different loading gauges in the tunnel as I'm unsure about the freight arrangements).

2 different gauges would potentially affect evacuation certification in the tunnel but I wouldn't have thought it would be a serious issue. The bigger problem would be having less flexible stock - if there's a problem with the Edinburgh set all you can do is cancel the train. Assuming there would be 1 train each night in each direction having essentially 4 sets that get coupled together into 2 trains through the tunnel isn't too bad.

However we're missing a bigger problem: HS1 is closed from 23:15 to 05:15 every night (slightly later opening on Sunday mornings). It's 31 minutes at 300kph, assuming this service is running closer to 160kph we're looking at a runtime more in the 40-45 minute range for the 110km from St Pancras to the Tunnel. So latest departure from St Pancras is 22.00, Give 30' for border processing so arrive from Edinburgh at 21.30, with a 4h30 travel time that's a 17.00 departure latest, which is somewhat early for people finishing up work. It also means an early dinner on the train or rushing before you get to St Pancras and have to rotate through the security. The return wouldn't need border controls but wouldn't be able to arrive in London until 06.00 and then it's a 10.30 arrival Edinburgh, which is later than many would like for a business meeting (10am starts would be out of the question, 11am would be potentially brave).
200kph LHCS would presumably be quite pricey, although IIRC there are some European lines that do operate push-pull sets at that speed.

 

[MarkyT]

Such a thing might also allow larger carriages as well as maybe HS1 is to European loading gauge as well so a St Pancras portion would allow that. (Don't know about how good it is to have 2 different loading gauges in the tunnel as I'm unsure about the freight arrangements).

On that basis, the London portion might be double decked to increase capacity. Don't see a problem having two different carriage body profiles on the same train. In Japan, smaller bodied 'mini-shinkensen' trains, built for formerly narrow gauge branches that have been converted to standard gauge, couple up to full-size units for the fast run to and from Tokyo at full speed. The E5/E6 combination is an example.

 

[Gaelan]

2 different gauges would potentially affect evacuation certification in the tunnel but I wouldn't have thought it would be a serious issue. The bigger problem would be having less flexible stock - if there's a problem with the Edinburgh set all you can do is cancel the train. Assuming there would be 1 train each night in each direction having essentially 4 sets that get coupled together into 2 trains through the tunnel isn't too bad.

However we're missing a bigger problem: HS1 is closed from 23:15 to 05:15 every night (slightly later opening on Sunday mornings). It's 31 minutes at 300kph, assuming this service is running closer to 160kph we're looking at a runtime more in the 40-45 minute range for the 110km from St Pancras to the Tunnel. So latest departure from St Pancras is 22.00, Give 30' for border processing so arrive from Edinburgh at 21.30, with a 4h30 travel time that's a 17.00 departure latest, which is somewhat early for people finishing up work. It also means an early dinner on the train or rushing before you get to St Pancras and have to rotate through the security. The return wouldn't need border controls but wouldn't be able to arrive in London until 06.00 and then it's a 10.30 arrival Edinburgh, which is later than many would like for a business meeting (10am starts would be out of the question, 11am would be potentially brave).
200kph LHCS would presumably be quite pricey, although IIRC there are some European lines that do operate push-pull sets at that speed.

Is the infrastructure still there to run along non-HS1 lines to the tunnel? At those speeds they don’t necessarily gain much from running on HS1. You’d lose the ability to couple at StP to a London service, though.

Also, Southeastern runs what look like HS1 services (eg the 23:37 from StP) later than the times you give - are the hours different for domestic trains?

 

[MarkyT]

2 different gauges would potentially affect evacuation certification in the tunnel but I wouldn't have thought it would be a serious issue. The bigger problem would be having less flexible stock - if there's a problem with the Edinburgh set all you can do is cancel the train. Assuming there would be 1 train each night in each direction having essentially 4 sets that get coupled together into 2 trains through the tunnel isn't too bad.

However we're missing a bigger problem: HS1 is closed from 23:15 to 05:15 every night (slightly later opening on Sunday mornings). It's 31 minutes at 300kph, assuming this service is running closer to 160kph we're looking at a runtime more in the 40-45 minute range for the 110km from St Pancras to the Tunnel. So latest departure from St Pancras is 22.00, Give 30' for border processing so arrive from Edinburgh at 21.30, with a 4h30 travel time that's a 17.00 departure latest, which is somewhat early for people finishing up work. It also means an early dinner on the train or rushing before you get to St Pancras and have to rotate through the security. The return wouldn't need border controls but wouldn't be able to arrive in London until 06.00 and then it's a 10.30 arrival Edinburgh, which is later than many would like for a business meeting (10am starts would be out of the question, 11am would be potentially brave).
200kph LHCS would presumably be quite pricey, although IIRC there are some European lines that do operate push-pull sets at that speed.

With the apparent renaissance of overnight travel, perhaps there might be some scope to vary these maintenance closure times. Nightstar would have run on classic lines in UK being envisaged before a new high-speed line was confirmed so could have used various routes to get to the tunnel through Kent.

 

[Speed43125]

Perhaps they could couple an Edinburgh portion onto a London portion that had already been loading at St Pancras to make the best use of that full-length consist on HS1 and through the tunnel. If the Edinburgh set had a push-pull DVT on the point heading south with the loco pushing from the back then a simple couple-up and cab-change could suffice for an easy reversal. Maybe the full-length train could have a loco/power car at each end.

I'd assume that if you were reversing in StP anyway, that might be a good time to swap locos. A continental loco as far as St. Pancras, then swapped for a UK one at St. Pancras (necessary LZB modifications made etc) makes most sense to me. If passport controls/loading ex. London passengers are taking place anyway, then I wonder if time taken would even matter so much. I've no clue if the station would be quiet enough/trackwork accommodating this move existing for any of that to work though.

 

[zwk500]

I'd assume that if you were reversing in StP anyway, that might be a good time to swap locos. A continental loco as far as St. Pancras, then swapped for a UK one at St. Pancras (necessary LZB modifications made etc) makes most sense to me.

no LZB needed if running UK-France (TVM and KVB needed for HS1). But youd keep the locos pn both ends for channel tunnel purposes.

If passport controls/loading ex. London passengers are taking place anyway, then I wonder if time taken would even matter so much. I've no clue if the station would be quiet enough/trackwork accommodating this move existing for any of that to work though.

Certainly possible to drop a loco on the back, although I can't remember if there's a direct link from St Panc to the ECML or if you'd need ro run beyond and reverse to come in.

 

[Trainguy34]

no LZB needed if running UK-France (TVM and KVB needed for HS1). But youd keep the locos pn both ends for channel tunnel purposes.

Certainly possible to drop a loco on the back, although I can't remember if there's a direct link from St Panc to the ECML or if you'd need ro run beyond and reverse to come in.

No, probably some overground reverses or going link to Camden then WCML via Primrose Hill

 

[Speed43125]

no LZB needed if running UK-France (TVM and KVB needed for HS1). But youd keep the locos pn both ends for channel tunnel purposes.

KVB was what I was thinking of, thanks.

Certainly possible to drop a loco on the back, although I can't remember if there's a direct link from St Panc to the ECML or if you'd need ro run beyond and reverse to come in.

Isn't the link extant but only operable under possession for maintenance vehicles?

 

[zwk500]

No, probably some overground reverses or going link to Camden then WCML via Primrose Hill

The link is physically there,. have just checked on Open Railway Map.

Isn't the link extant but only operable under possession for maintenance vehicles?

This may be true but is solvable of course.

 

[MarkyT]

Isn't the link extant but only operable under possession for maintenance vehicles?

The link is physically there and AFAIK included in signalling, but I expect routes are normally disabled in the interlocking. It's a control boundary between York ROC and Ashford IECC today, so the appropriate workstations would need to cooperate to make a movement. There's also a track connection to the MML from the international platforms, but signalling for that was never completed although movements under possession might be possible theoretically.

 

[StephenHunter]

The link is physically there,. have just checked on Open Railway Map.

This may be true but is solvable of course.

Everything about Edinburgh to Paris is solvable with political will.

 

[zwk500]

Everything about Edinburgh to Paris is solvable with political will.

While this is true in a conceptual sense, the solution of simply commissioning some signalling would be rather simpler than if the solution was to subsidise this train up the wazoo.

 

[Bartsimho]

The link is physically there and AFAIK included in signalling, but I expect routes are normally disabled in the interlocking. It's a control boundary between York ROC and Ashford IECC today, so the appropriate workstations would need to cooperate to make a movement. There's also a track connection to the MML from the international platforms, but signalling for that was never completed although movements under possession might be possible theoretically.

I'd expect it would be easier to do for a sleeper as well it being after the evening peak. It also being the International Platforms with the last passenger movement being the 2230 from Paris and then its just stock to sidings.

While this is true in a conceptual sense, the solution of simply commissioning some signalling would be rather simpler than if the solution was to subsidise this train up the wazoo.

As this is a private company proposing this say they can do it just that there is no subsidy and see if they take it off the ground.

 

[zwk500]

As this is a private company proposing this say they can do it just that there is no subsidy and see if they take it off the ground.

I hope it doesn't take off the ground, something would have gone wrong with the tracks!

As it's a private company there will be no subsidy. Therefore the ticket prices will need to correspond to the costs of such an expensive prospect, of which the Border question is not necessarily going to be a deciding factor.

 

[Bartsimho]

I hope it doesn't take off the ground, something would have gone wrong with the tracks!

As it's a private company there will be no subsidy. Therefore the ticket prices will need to correspond to the costs of such an expensive prospect, of which the Border question is not necessarily going to be a deciding factor.

Lol.

Yeah. Don't subsidise it and see if they can pull it off. If they can great. If not we have to accept that we are an island and any transit which isn't a plane or a boat off is unfeasible outside of limited cases

 

[JB_B]

I don't doubt that the infrastructure and rolling stock issues issues are solvable (as discussed upthread) but is there any reason to believe that the political and commercial problems facing Midnight's proposed Edinburgh-Paris sleeper service could realistically be overcome in the next few years? It seems very unlikely to me.

It's no surprise that the EU is only supporting their Paris-Venice plan which was a well established (and only recently deceased ) route with far fewer obstacles.

 

[zwk500]

If not we have to accept that we are an island and any transit which isn't a plane or a boat off is unfeasible outside of limited cases

Day trains are perfectly feasible. Night trains were always a niche even before jet travel.

I don't doubt that the infrastructure and rolling stock issues issues are solvable (as discussed upthread) but is there any reason to believe that the political and commercial problems facing Midnight's proposed Edinburgh-Paris sleeper service could realistically be overcome in the next few years?

I think politically it will be quite attractive to a range of political people, although the commercial obstacles are going to be far higher.