Milepost markers - from where are they measured

[Bessie]

Living in the south east I can work out that most milepost markers I see are measured to/from the relevant London terminus station but I have two questions - one is specifically about the milepost marker at Earley station near Reading which shows 66. This is on the slow Waterloo-Reading line but even this route can't be 66 miles from Waterloo at Earley - hence where is the measured in relation to? Second question is in other parts of England where are milepost markers measured to/from, is there a unified approach?

 

[swt_passenger]

Living in the south east I can work out that most milepost markers I see are measured to/from the relevant London terminus station but I have two questions - one is specifically about the milepost marker at Earley station near Reading which shows 66. This is on the slow Waterloo-Reading line but even this route can't be 66 miles from Waterloo at Earley - hence where is the measured in relation to? Second question is in other parts of England where are milepost markers measured to/from, is there a unified approach?

The mileposts from Waterloo only reach Wokingham, the Wokingham to Reading section is actually measured from a zero reached by the Guildford line somewhere, but I don’t know where for sure - I’ll have a search but in the meantime someone else will probably know….

 

[pdeaves]

Earley measured from Charing Cross via Redhill. The odd route is a result of different historical companies building different bits of route.

 

[Ianno87]

The Quail Track Diagram books give the best overview of where mileposts on each route are measured from and via what route.

It is generally dictated by whichever company originally built the railway, and miles via "their" track from the Zero point (e.g. London, or the company headquarters). Of course, plenty of exceptions apply to this "rule".

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for confirming Charing Cross, I expected somewhere up the Brighton line but would have needed to search.

However the more general question about where zeros are usually located was also addressed in a thread only a few days ago, (despite its seemingly unrelated title):

When does 'up' become 'down' and vice versa?

My understanding is that the London direction is 'up' and away from London is 'down'. This makes sense when there were individual railway companies/groups operating out of a single London termini going to single termini in major cities. But now we have services running across the old company...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Living in the south east I can work out that most milepost markers I see are measured to/from the relevant London terminus station but I have two questions - one is specifically about the milepost marker at Earley station near Reading which shows 66. This is on the slow Waterloo-Reading line but even this route can't be 66 miles from Waterloo at Earley - hence where is the measured in relation to? Second question is in other parts of England where are milepost markers measured to/from, is there a unified approach?

The first line into Reading after the GWR was the South Eastern Railway, via its extension from Redhill, in 1849.
So mileages on that route are measured from Charing Cross via Redhill to Reading.
The South Western Railway route from Waterloo via Staines and Ascot came in 1856, and mileages on that route finish at Wokingham Jn, which is 36m35c from Waterloo, and 61m72c from Charing Cross.
It's also why at Wokingham, the original "straight" route is the one from Redhill, while the later line from Staines arrives on a curve.
There are discontinuities in mileages all across the country as new shorter routes infilled the original longer ones, and in most cases the original mileposts are still used - a typical one is mileages on the original GWR route to Birmingham via Oxford, while mileages on the shorter route via High Wycombe finish at Aynho Jn where the two routes merge.

Mileages often started at a London terminus*, but it generally depended on the construction powers of the original company as to where its mileages started.
Sometimes mileages were integrated as company mergers happened, sometimes not.
Some routes were also resurveyed at some point in their lifetimes, but mostly not.
There are some really odd anomalies in mileposts as a result.
In the middle of platform 5/9 at York station is a "zero" milepost for 10 railways: Restored zero mile post returns to York | LNER

* not the Great Central, which measured its mileages from Manchester London Road (Piccadilly) via Sheffield Victoria, so Marylebone is at 209m77c.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One of the "classic" oddities being Marylebone, which is at 205 miles 77 chains from Manchester via Woodhead and the Great Central.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The first line into Reading after the GWR was the South Eastern Railway, via its extension from Redhill, in 1849.
So mileages on that route are measured from Charing Cross via Redhill to Reading.

Were SER mileages recalculated when the extension from London Bridge to Charing Cross was built in 1864?

 

[steamybrian]

One the oddities on the Spa Valley Railway is that on the 5 miles between Tunbridge Wells West and Eridge you pass THREE sets of mileposts measured from different directions.
between Tunbridge Wells West- Groombridge Junction mileages range from 46 to 49 measured from London via Three Bridges and East Grinstead.
between Groombridge Jn to Birchden Jn it is between approx. 28 and 29 miles measured from Brighton via Lewes and Uckfield.
between Birchden Jn and Eridge approx 36 miles measured from London via Oxted and Hever.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Were SER mileages recalculated when the extension from London Bridge to Charing Cross was built in 1864?

I don't really know the answer to that, but it must be what happened, or was used prior to CHX opening as the intended zero.
I didn't mention the fact that the SER didn't own much of the route from London to Redhill, as it used the LBSC which was measured from a zero at London Bridge!
SER mileages restart at Windmill Bridge Jn via Redhill station, continuing to Reading and Tonbridge, while LBSC mileages continue on the Quarry line towards Brighton.
The Reading SER mileages are also interrupted for about 7 miles through Guildford as far as the former Ash Jn by LSWR mileages as they built the first route in the area.
The Quail/Trackmaps maps are a mine of information on this matter, showing the successive ownership of routes up to nationalisation, as well as the mileages.

 

[Bessie]

Thanks for the replies. I've learnt a great deal plus I always wondered why the SWR "main" line had such a sharp bend at Wokingham compared to the straight on GWR line and now I know

 

[pdeaves]

You might be interested in the sub-pages to http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/elrs/elr0.shtm to see how different routes were measured (disclosure: my pages)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would it be fair to say that branch line mileages usually start from zero as a point close to where they diverge from the "main" line, for example the Styal branch line, counts upwards from 0.00 at Wilmslow South Junction (towards Slade Lane Junction) whilst the "main" line mileage, via Stockport, also continues to counts upwards towards Slade Lane, but with the 0.00 being back in Euston?

Or is that too simplistic an approach?

 

[Bevan Price]

It is all very complicated, a situation made worse by "re-posting" at some stage in the history of a line -- or confusing if a line has closed, but the milepost series incorporates the closed section.

Some branch lines have a new zero at the junction points, especially if access to the branch would require a reversal of direction proceeding away from the mileage zero point.

A few zero points away from London:
Manchester Victoria (many ex Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway lines - but a separate zero at Liverpool Exchange for lines to Southport & Preston.)

Edinburgh Waverley (many ex North British Railway lines).

Derby (London Road Jn) (Midland route, Derby to Bristol)

See Mr Deaves' site for full details,

 

[S&CLER]

It is all very complicated, a situation made worse by "re-posting" at some stage in the history of a line -- or confusing if a line has closed, but the milepost series incorporates the closed section.

Some branch lines have a new zero at the junction points, especially if access to the branch would require a reversal of direction proceeding away from the mileage zero point.

A few zero points away from London:
Manchester Victoria (many ex Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway lines - but a separate zero at Liverpool Exchange for lines to Southport & Preston.)

Edinburgh Waverley (many ex North British Railway lines).

Derby (London Road Jn) (Midland route, Derby to Bristol)

See Mr Deaves' site for full details,

And the L&Y line from Preston to Colne and to Hall Royd Jn Todmorden is measured from a zero (still visible) at Farington Curve Jn. The curve from that point to the East Lancs line was a rather late addition to the L&Y system after 1900, so there must have been a remeasuring involved. Oddly, Blackburn-Hellifield is also measured from Farington Curve, and not from Manchester Victoria as you might expect.

 

[etr221]

It is all very complicated, a situation made worse by "re-posting" at some stage in the history of a line -- or confusing if a line has closed, but the milepost series incorporates the closed section.

The other issue that occurs is that part of one company's line would be via joint ownership or running powers - with the progressive mileage being interrupted by the other company's (so on the SER route to Reading, while all the SER sections were measured from Charing Cross, other sections were LBSCR (measured from London Bridge) or LSWR (from Waterloo, direct south of Guildford, with reversal at Guildford on towards Ash).

I think (but am not certain, so correct me if I'm wrong) that St Pancras to Petteril Goods depot (307m14ch) is/was longest continuous progressive mileage is the country, and the only one over 300 miles.

My understanding is that in the early 1970s, when LU re posted all their lines in km based on Epping, BR looked at doing much the same thing - a logical reposting/measuring in km, but decided it was too complex and expensive to actually do...

 

[181]

in the early 1970s, when LU re posted all their lines in km based on Epping

Small correction: actually Ongar (now no longer on the Underground, of course) rather than Epping.

 

[pdeaves]

I think (but am not certain, so correct me if I'm wrong) that St Pancras to Petteril Goods depot (307m14ch) is/was longest continuous progressive mileage is the country, and the only one over 300 miles.

Paddington-Penzance (via Bath) goes to 326m 50ch, so a bit longer. There have been a couple of minor realignments and I just realise the count was via now-closed Millbay, making the earlier part of this post superfluous.

 

[===gricer===]

I have often wondered this. What if anything ( post/plaque ) identifies the datum points ?
Any pictures of any datum points ?

 

[pdeaves]

I have often wondered this. What if anything ( post/plaque ) identifies the datum points ?
Any pictures of any datum points ?

Here's one at York with informative blue plaque: https://www.photohound.co/images/1007722t.jpg

Mostly, however, they are nothing elaborate, being simply 'the terminus buffers' or similar.

Edit: this is the zero point for almost all (not quite all) the London Underground system: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gr4ryvxu...ciAgw1Umvc3OiC5v7qrAwCLcBGAs/s640/ongzero.jpg

 

[edwin_m]

Here's the zero milepost at York: The York Zero milepost © Stephen Craven cc-by-sa/2.0 :: Geograph Britain and Ireland

There are others elsewhere, but usually less elaborate. I don't think a zero milepost is provided if the datum is a set of buffer stops.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it be fair to say that branch line mileages usually start from zero as a point close to where they diverge from the "main" line, for example the Styal branch line, counts upwards from 0.00 at Wilmslow South Junction (towards Slade Lane Junction) whilst the "main" line mileage, via Stockport, also continues to counts upwards towards Slade Lane, but with the 0.00 being back in Euston?

Or is that too simplistic an approach?

I did a quick check in the GW online sectional appendix, and the first few “facing” branches, eg Greenford, Windsor, Bourne End, continue the mileage from Paddington down the branch. But branches that require a reversal to access from the Paddington direction restart at zero.

But then an opposite example nearer home from the SWR area, the mileages on the Eastleigh to Romsey line carry on from the Waterloo zero, and that‘s a branch that requires a reversal.

I expect every possible method you can think of for branch measurement exists somewhere or other…

 

[Tempest Malice]

I think (but am not certain, so correct me if I'm wrong) that St Pancras to Petteril Goods depot (307m14ch) is/was longest continuous progressive mileage is the country, and the only one over 300 miles.

Paddington-Penzance (via Bath) goes to 326m 50ch, so a bit longer. There have been a couple of minor realignments and I just realise the count was via now-closed Millbay, making the earlier part of this post superfluous.

I thought the midland millage also goes via a couple of now-closed sections (Wath Road Junction, Swinton - Monk Bretton and Oakenshaw Junction - Normanton ) so neither of these mileages are completely continuous any more (though both were)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You can also get negative mileages, where lines have been extended beyond the original zero point.
Euston's platforms are at -0m03c, meaning they extend 3 chains (66yds) south of the original buffer stops.

HS2 will also introduce a small discontinuity in kilometrage/mileage where, starting from essentially the same zero point at Euston, it meets the classic WCML at Handsacre (north of Lichfield) and Crewe.
It will be interesting how this will be shown in NR's NRT.
HS1 station distances are shown in miles in the NRT (Table 194), even though the line itself is measured in km.

 

[zwk500]

HS2 will also introduce a small discontinuity in kilometrage/mileage where, starting from essentially the same zero point at Euston, it meets the classic WCML at Handsacre (north of Lichfield) and Crewe.
It will be interesting how this will be shown in NR's NRT.
HS1 station distances are shown in miles in the NRT (Table 194), even though the line itself is measured in km.

HS2 runs via a different route, so it'd be little different to having different mileages via Weedon or Northampton, or indeed Euston to Manchester via Stoke or Crewe.

 

[etr221]

Paddington-Penzance (via Bath) goes to 326m 50ch, so a bit longer. There have been a couple of minor realignments and I just realise the count was via now-closed Millbay, making the earlier part of this post superfluous.

I thought the midland millage also goes via a couple of now-closed sections (Wath Road Junction, Swinton - Monk Bretton and Oakenshaw Junction - Normanton ) so neither of these mileages are completely continuous any more (though both were)

Great Western 'Main Line' mileage was a continuous sequence from Paddington to Millbay, whence odd things happened to break the continuity - the section from Millbay back to Cornwall Junction was double counted... (Cornwall Jcn was 246m26ch from the east, 247m22ch to the west, with Millbay at 246m64ch).

So only ever a continuous progression as far as Millbay (is it still continuous to (site of) North Road Junction?); whereas (I believe) the Midland mileage was (even if there are now gaps due to closure)

 

[Efini92]

I believe wolverton has the record for the “longest mile” as when they realigned the track the mileage was never altered.

 

[zwk500]

I believe wolverton has the record for the “longest mile” as when they realigned the track the mileage was never altered.

Neither NESA nor 5 miles indicate a long (or short) mile between MKC and Hanslope Jn.

 

[Efini92]

Neither NESA nor 5 miles indicate a long (or short) mile between MKC and Hanslope Jn.

It could be an old railway myth or maybe because it was realigned in 1840 it didn’t make it into any documents?

 

[zwk500]

It could be an old railway myth or maybe because it was realigned in 1840 it didn’t make it into any documents?

It's possible that it was early enough to be resurveyed, or that it was resurveyed as part of the 4-tracking. Mind you, I'm having trouble tracking down other short miles I'm sure exist so it might just be I'm not reading the documentation correctly.