Mineral wagons

[Andy873]

I'm hoping someone can help out with this one.

I've found out a little bit more of how freight trains worked my old line:

Before going down a 1 in 40 bank, wagons had to have their brakes put on.
When arriving at Padiham station the train stops at Padiham Up home signal number 2 for the brakes to be released.

What puzzles me is where the train stops to remove the brakes - the wagons themselves would be along side the up platform. I've double checked these facts and these are the instructions in the sectional appendix (1960).

What can you tell me about say a typical 16 ton mineral wagon?
More importantly did they have the brake handle (I presume a handle?) on both sides for instance?
And wouldn't it be awkward to release the brakes while the platform is in the way of one side of the wagons?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

Brakes on 16 ton minerals were applied by pushing a lever on the side of the underframe down and then holding it in place by shoving a metal pin in through a pair of holes in the two sides of the channel in which the handle ran. Release was by removing the pin and lifting the end of the handle back to the housing at the top (or, if it was hard on, pulling the pin out with an effort and letting it straighten with a loud Poinggg).

The likely practice is that the trains would not stop actually in the platforms, but on the running line somewhere in the station area. If the train did stop in the platform releasing the brakes was still possible, but it would be a bit more of a trial and would produce some choice language from the guard.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm hoping someone can help out with this one.

I've found out a little bit more of how freight trains worked my old line:

Before going down a 1 in 40 bank, wagons had to have their brakes put on.
When arriving at Padiham station the train stops at Padiham Up home signal number 2 for the brakes to be released.

What puzzles me is where the train stops to remove the brakes - the wagons themselves would be along side the up platform. I've double checked these facts and these are the instructions in the sectional appendix (1960).

What can you tell me about say a typical 16 ton mineral wagon?
More importantly did they have the brake handle (I presume a handle?) on both sides for instance?
And wouldn't it be awkward to release the brakes while the platform is in the way of one side of the wagons?

Thanks,
Andy.

The standard 16 ton mineral wagons have independent hand brakes on either side of the wagon that act on the axles that side only.

The guard would "pin down" a certain number of wagons determined by route knowledge vs the train weight at the top of the bank - using a wooden brake stick to push the lever down and secure it with a pin. The rule of thumb was the brake force should be such that the locomotive should still have to pull the train downhill against the brake rather than coast, to reduce the risk of running away, with the brake van handbrake being left as a reserve in case of mishap. It's awkward to release a handbrake against a platform face but certainly not impossible - one way is to stand or lean on the lever to push it down away from the pin and pull it out.

The wagons were designed such that the brakes are easy to operate on the move (common in yards to aid shunting) or at a stand. On the move was a very risky job in case you got caught up and dragged.

Stopping at the signal doesn't necessary mean drawing right up to it, just that you shouldn't depart past it until carrying out the instruction. The driver would probably just pull up short of the platform.

The above is a basic summary - wagon brakes could be subtly different but for the standard mineral wagon that applies.

 

[Magdalia]

At Blackwell, at the top of the Lickey incline, an old GWR sign "Goods trains to stop to pin down brakes" survived at least until the early 1980s, see here:

Nearly There!

An up express from Bristol about to breast the summit of the Lickey Incline at Blackwell on Tuesday evening 9th June 1981.

flickr.com

This picture does not show the sign so clearly, but does give a description of the "pinning down":

An 8F at Blackwell (PJS 0302)

Standing at the top of the Lickey Bank is Stanier 8F 48056. The train has stopped to 'pin down the brakes' before the descent, in the distance a train climbing the bank can be seen as a plume of white exhaust. The picture is an evening shot and is from the long closed Blackwell station platform...

flickr.com

It is possible that there was a similar sign on "your old line".

 

[LowLevel]

There's still an old BR AWB sign which stands for Apply Wagon Brakes on the up passing through Leigh towards Uttoxeter.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks all, very interesting stuff.

I could imagine some colourful language releasing some wagon brakes while stopped at the station with the platform in the way!

Some really good descriptions here of how the brakes were applied and released - thanks again.

It is possible that there was a similar sign on "your old line".

Yes there was, I haven't seen any photos of it but my book about the line states there was a wooden sign just before a stone overbridge instructing drivers to stop and pin down the brakes before going down the bank.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Incline working" - to give an example - Abernant Colliery to Pantyffynon Yard (9B96) - would stop at a location near the Locked telephone box at Gwaun Cae Gurwen (never commissioned station), before the 1-37 or so down gradient and pin down brakes - never less than 10 loaded wagons - proceed carefully and stop again for the brakes to be unpinned at Raven Crossing. In both places there were quite decent purpose made walking routes to assist the guard and travelling shunter to carry out their job. Driver would sound the horn 3-3 from memory when they were satisfied they had enough brakes pinned down , mind you 2x37's had a bit of braking power and sanders in any case.

Another classic South Wales route was Penrhos Junction to Taffs Well , aka "The Big Hill" - and a bank guard lurked at the latter to assist in the release of pinned down brakes.

 

[matchmaker]

I have an old 1950s BR booklet "Point to point timings of freight trains". This gives the time in minutes allowed for freight trains to pass between two points - normally signal boxes. There are charts showing the times for various classes of train. For the unfitted classes there are a number of locations (normally on steeply graded lines) where an extra allowance is shown - usually 2 - 3 minutes - annotated "stop to pin down wagon brakes".

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I have an old 1950s BR booklet "Point to point timings of freight trains". This gives the time in minutes allowed for freight trains to pass between two points - normally signal boxes. There are charts showing the times for various classes of train. For the unfitted classes there are a number of locations (normally on steeply graded lines) where an extra allowance is shown - usually 2 - 3 minutes - annotated "stop to pin down wagon brakes".

Bit optimsitic I would have thought ....

Guards were a tough bunch , especially freight ones - but walking the length of a train (possibly in the dark / bad weather etc) - to deal with a train and then re-board the moving train .......

 

[Andy873]

and then re-board the moving train

I guess that wouldn't be allowed now, they must have been a tough bunch.

I have an old 1950s BR booklet "Point to point timings of freight trains"

Any chance of showing a page of it? I've heard of these but never seen one.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[billh]

I remember seeing a sign about goods trains stopping to pin down brakes near Radcliffe on the Manchester-Bury Line , it was there long after conversion to Metrolink! It might still be there in the undergrowth?

 

[Andy873]

I remember seeing a sign about goods trains stopping to pin down brakes

I wonder just how many still remain / hidden...

Speaking of which, I'm told not all wagon brakes were pinned down. apparently it was at the driver discretion. I wonder how many wagons would be say for example 5 out of 20?

And would the pinned wagons be at the front end of the train? or spread out?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . . For the unfitted classes there are a number of locations (normally on steeply graded lines) where an extra allowance is shown - usually 2 - 3 minutes - annotated "stop to pin down wagon brakes".

Bit optimsitic I would have thought ....

Guards were a tough bunch , especially freight ones - but walking the length of a train (possibly in the dark / bad weather etc) - to deal with a train and then re-board the moving train .......

Attached below is an example from the OP's area of interest - East Lancs - showing the times allowed in the WTT for pinning down and picking up brakes on the Copy Pit line.

5 minutes seemed to be the standard allowance to put on brakes at Copy Pit summit, then 5 mins to take 'em off at Burnley Manchester Road before proceeding to Rose Grove yard.
Eastbound, the same 5 mins allowance applied at Copy Pit (on) and Stansfield Hall (off).
A couple of minutes was also allowed for westbound trains at Stansfield Hall to add a banking loco.

This extract is from the Oct 1970 - May 1971 WTT, so all diesel haulage at that stage.
The key to the codes in the WTT is:-

• AE - Stops only to attach or detach assisting locomotive.
• P - Stops only to pin down or pick up wagon brakes.

I'd say having to pin down your train's brakes up on the moors at Copy Pit summit in the middle of a rainy winter's night is one of those occasions a guard's toughness would get tested!

I remember loose-coupled coal trains in the Wigan area needing their brakes pinned down to descend certain inclines, and the terrible screeching noise some (or most) of the wagons made when the loco got the train moving again.

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure if it was written down in an official publication, but it would be well known to drivers and guards working regularly down an incline as to what proportion of wagons in a train should have their brakes pinned down. They would know all the variables and it would probably be almost automatic: once the guard had made up his journal his mind would think, ‘I’ll need to pin down X wagons at the incline’.

I think, but am not certain, that the brakes would normally be in one group, most likely those nearest the van in order to reduce the walking back and forth of the guard. It might be that a few at the front might be done (possibly unofficially) by the fireman if they wanted to save time and didn’t have a fitted head.

The number of wagons could vary, depending on the braking capabilities of the loco, the existence or not of a fitted head, the weight of the train, even the weather. However, the last may not have been covered in detail in the rules.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder just how many still remain / hidden...

Speaking of which, I'm told not all wagon brakes were pinned down. apparently it was at the driver discretion. I wonder how many wagons would be say for example 5 out of 20?

And would the pinned wagons be at the front end of the train? or spread out?

Thanks,
Andy.

It would depend on the gradient and whether a train had a 'fitted head' i.e. the first few wagons behind the loco had driver-operated brakes. In general it would be spread out, to avoid a section of the train acting as a battering ram and overwhelming the brakes.

This video gives a little bit of insight into what happened at the top of the Lickey Incline

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In my observation - about a third , but depending on.wagon types - a rake might have for example heavier 24T hopper wagons as front load , with maybe standard 16t wagons behind. Always pinned down next to the loco(s)

A part fitted train on a Welsh branch line would have been referred to as "effete" - but a different story on the main line from say Margam to Severn Tunnel Jct. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

 

[matchmaker]

I guess that wouldn't be allowed now, they must have been a tough bunch.


Any chance of showing a page of it? I've heard of these but never seen one.

Thanks,
Andy.

I'll try and scan a page in tomorrow

 

[Dr_Paul]

Would not the pinning down of brakes lead to the wagons' wheels getting flats on the tyres?

 

[Taunton]

At Blackwell, at the top of the Lickey incline, an old GWR sign "Goods trains to stop to pin down brakes" survived at least until the early 1980s, see here:

LMS sign I suspect, as they owned the Birmingham-Bristol line.

 

[krus_aragon]

Would not the pinning down of brakes lead to the wagons' wheels getting flats on the tyres?

I expect the brakes were partially applied, i.e. so that they gave retardation without locking the wheels. Locked wheels are less efficient at braking, anyway: hence anti-lock brakes on cars, for example.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I expect the brakes were partially applied, i.e. so that they gave retardation without locking the wheels. Locked wheels are less efficient at braking, anyway: hence anti-lock brakes on cars, for example.

That makes sense. Indeed, might that not smooth off a flat, with the brake-block acting like a crude lathe?

 

[Magdalia]

LMS sign I suspect, as they owned the Birmingham-Bristol line.

Absolutely. I should have remembered that from the Midland mileposts.

 

[Rescars]

If you can find copies, D L Smith's Tales of the GSWR and his other works are peppered with anecdotes about the practical challenges of working loose coupled goods trains over switchback gradients and mineral lines around Ayrshire in an era when H&S had no meaning.

 

[Andy873]

Great replies.

Looks like if you over did the brakes the engine could struggle to get the lot moving again.

Love the Railway Roundabout video showing the work of banking engines - a lot of skill involved there for all to see.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[matchmaker]

I'll try and scan a page in tomorrow

Here we go:

 

[2392]

Out of interest at the end of the north bound [towards Grosmont] platform of Goathland/Aidensfield/Hogsmead station, on the NYMR. There is a little square black with white edging sign with a white capital B on it, beside the viewing area on the station approach. That indicts to the crews that they need to pin down the requisite number of brakes on their goods train, before heading down the 1 in 49 bank. It wouldn't matter pinning the platform side brakes down, as Goathland is a double track section as was the whole line before closure and preservation. So the Guard could walk down the other side of the train [provided there wasn't a train on the southbound track/platform, of course]. Likewise at Grosmont he could unpin the brakes with the same proviso....

 

[Irascible]

That makes sense. Indeed, might that not smooth off a flat, with the brake-block acting like a crude lathe?

I'd think it'd be more likely to lock the wheelset, unfortunately

If you can find copies, D L Smith's Tales of the GSWR and his other works are peppered with anecdotes about the practical challenges of working loose coupled goods trains over switchback gradients and mineral lines around Ayrshire in an era when H&S had no meaning.

Watching video of shunters working old wagons around yards & depots is mind-boggling - and that's BR days, not pre-grouping.

 

[Andy873]

Thank you so much for the timing scans & replies - appreciated.

Regarding the removal of wagon brakes at Padiham station, the was double track and based on what's been said they could be released from the other side i.e. without the platform in the way.

At this stage the branch line was fairly quiet, so I guess that would work.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

Thank you so much for the timing scans & replies - appreciated.

Regarding the removal of wagon brakes at Padiham station, the was double track and based on what's been said they could be released from the other side i.e. without the platform in the way.

At this stage the branch line was fairly quiet, so I guess that would work.

Thanks,
Andy.

Even then I think that they would avoid stopping in the platforms, as then there is a risk of the guard being caught between the wagons of his train and a passing one. You could avoid this, but it would involve coordination between traincrew, signalmen and possibly yard/station staff: it would be likely to cause delay and might go wrong. So best avoided by stopping elsewhere if possible.

N.B. In #2 I mentioned the station area. By this I meant the area within the signals controlled by a signal box; also known as station limits. It does not necessarily match the area of the passenger or goods station itself. I have worked in boxes where there was no station and never had been, but it was still station limits.

 

[furnessvale]

Thank you so much for the timing scans & replies - appreciated.

Regarding the removal of wagon brakes at Padiham station, the was double track and based on what's been said they could be released from the other side i.e. without the platform in the way.

At this stage the branch line was fairly quiet, so I guess that would work.

Thanks,
Andy.

Sorry to add a "granny sucking eggs" type comment but it needs to be borne in mind that the brakes need to be unpinned from the same side that they were originally pinned down.