Minimum value possible on Oyster Card

[boiledbeans2]

What is the minimum value (most negative) value possible on an Oyster card?

The reason I ask is that I have 2 Oyster cards which I no longer need and will abandon them.

• The first is a post-£7 deposit card, which has £1 in stored value.
• The second is a pre-£7 deposit card, which has 20p in stored value. The card is older than 1 year, so the £5 deposit has automatically been refunded into the card.

So I'd like to make my last journeys on these cards, then abandon them once they have hit negative value. So what journeys can take the card to become most negative?
By "journeys", I mean a proper journey with a touch-in and touch-out**, not a journey where I touch-in, get the maximum fare deducted, and then abandon the card.

**Except when it's a bus, where touch-out is not possible.

 

[Alex365Dash]

What is the minimum value (most negative) value possible on an Oyster card?

The reason I ask is that I have 2 Oyster cards which I no longer need and will abandon them.

• The first is a post-£7 deposit card, which has £1 in stored value.
• The second is a pre-£7 deposit card, which has 20p in stored value. The card is older than 1 year, so the £5 deposit has automatically been refunded into the card.

So I'd like to make my last journeys on these cards, then abandon them once they have hit negative value. So what journeys can take the card to become most negative?
By "journeys", I mean a proper journey with a touch-in and touch-out**, not a journey where I touch-in, get the maximum fare deducted, and then abandon the card.

**Except when it's a bus, where touch-out is not possible.

A bus journey will allow you to reach a negative balance on an Oyster card as long as you have more than 0p* on the card when you touch in. This means the most the card would become negative by with this method is -£1.70.*

I currently have -£1.20 on mine!

*I think it’s the case if you have exactly 0p on your card it won’t let you on, but I’m not exactly sure on that one.

I also don’t know how this applies to Tube and train journeys.

 

[mmh]

I think for a barrier touch in you need to have a minimum balance of whatever the lowest single fare is (from that station?), so if I'm right about that you'd need to top them up first. If you wanted to then get them as negative as you could, go to the most far flung destination? In the past I'd have assumed Gatwick, but I don't know if other Oyster extensions have changed that since.

But wherever you go, you're going to have to get back from, surely?

 

[boiledbeans2]

I think for a barrier touch in you need to have a minimum balance of whatever the lowest single fare is (from that station?), so if I'm right about that you'd need to top them up first.

I originally thought the same.
As mentioned in my 1st post, I have a pre-£7 deposit card, which now has 20p in stored value. Prior to that, it had £8.30. I spent the day travelling around Z1-2, hitting the £8.10 cap, and therefore I had 20p at the end. I continued travelling around with only 20p and the system let me in (and out) of the barriers multiple times while staying within Z1-2.

But wherever you go, you're going to have to get back from, surely?

I could use one card to go, and the other card to return.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think for a barrier touch in you need to have a minimum balance of whatever the lowest single fare is (from that station?), so if I'm right about that you'd need to top them up first. If you wanted to then get them as negative as you could, go to the most far flung destination? In the past I'd have assumed Gatwick, but I don't know if other Oyster extensions have changed that since.

A tube barrier lets you on with a small amount on your card if you're near the/a daily cap - ie it recognises if you might be able to complete a journey (depending on the journey of course) without going negative. If you went to other zones and then tapped out, generating a charge which wasn't covered by the balance, I guess you'd get a negative balance on the card and it'd be unusable for a further journey without putting money on... though if you never used that card again you've made a profit, so to speak.

On a bus, on the other hand, I've tried to get on to start a journey which would be free (eg because I'm changing buses within the hour), with a card with little or no money on it, and my card was rejected as having insufficient balance for a journey (which it did, in a sense - but not in order to make an uncharged journey!). So in my experience bus Oyster readers are less sophisticated than Underground ones.

 

[hkstudent]

I am thinking would that be causing a loophole if a passenger attempted to leave from a very far expensive station like Heathrow EL, Gatwick Airport, Hertford stations, etc.

 

[mmh]

I am thinking would that be causing a loophole if a passenger attempted to leave from a very far expensive station like Heathrow EL, Gatwick Airport, Hertford stations, etc.

That's the whole basis of this thread - where to go to make it as expensive as possible. It's not a "loophole," it's how Oyster works. It has no idea where you're going to until you tap out there, which is why negative balances have to exist.

All that happens is the card balance is updated. The OP will then never use that card again.

 

[Somewhere]

I am thinking would that be causing a loophole if a passenger attempted to leave from a very far expensive station like Heathrow EL, Gatwick Airport, Hertford stations, etc.

Its designed like that to prevent people being trapped within the system. Call it a loophole if you like, but presumably its a risk they decided was worth it when they introduced the Oystercard. Bit like how people can use cancelled credit cards if they want

A bus journey will allow you to reach a negative balance on an Oyster card as long as you have more than 0p* on the card when you touch in. This means the most the card would become negative by with this method is -£1.70.*

I currently have -£1.20 on mine!

*I think it’s the case if you have exactly 0p on your card it won’t let you on, but I’m not exactly sure on that one.

I also don’t know how this applies to Tube and train journeys.

I wonder how the bus hopper fare works if your first journey takes you negative? Do you get in with subsequent taps as they're free, even though you're in a negative balance?

 

[island]

I wonder how the bus hopper fare works if your first journey takes you negative? Do you get in with subsequent taps as they're free, even though you're in a negative balance?

See post 5.

 

[cool110]

Its designed like that to prevent people being trapped within the system. Call it a loophole if you like, but presumably its a risk they decided was worth it when they introduced the Oystercard. Bit like how people can use cancelled credit cards if they want

It wasn't a risk back then as the deposit was more than the maximum possible negative balance, it's only become one as the system has expanded and fares have risen.

 

[mangyiscute]

How does it work at Heathrow - could you in theory tap in with zero balance, since there is the heathrow free travel zone, and then tap out at paddington after taking the heathrow express which charges you £25, and you'd be on -£25?

 

[mmh]

Positive balances and unclaimed deposits also exist of course. Over half a billion quid's worth at the last count, so negative balances will pale into complete insignificance by comparison.

"The latest Transport for London (TfL) figures from June 2023 show there are more than 83 million Oyster cards out there that haven't been used for at least a year. And there's more than a whopping £517 million sitting on them, which was made up of over £259 million in initial deposits when getting the card and over £258 million in pay-as-you-go credit."

Source: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/oyster-card-refunds/

 

[island]

How does it work at Heathrow - could you in theory tap in with zero balance, since there is the heathrow free travel zone, and then tap out at paddington after taking the heathrow express which charges you £25, and you'd be on -£25?

You’re theoretically at risk of a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution for intentionally evading the fare there, though HEX’s traditional policy for dealing with fare evaders was giving them a free return journey to be taken immediately.

 

[zero]

There are no £7-deposit oysters, they are £7-fee oysters.

There are also no-deposit oysters, £3-deposit oysters and £5-deposit oysters, as well as £5-fee oysters of which most have now turned into no-deposit oysters.

Generally you need 5p to touch on a bus regardless of hopper, unless you have already hit a daily cap (bus or zone) when you will be able to touch in with £0.

For other services you need enough for the lowest fare from that station at the time of touch in, but if you will reach the daily cap from that station after this journey, then it will let you in with the amount needed to reach the cap, i.e. you will end up with £0 and you will still be able to travel with £0. Now that all caps include Z1 it's easy to calculate.

Previously, especially with discounts, it might have capped you at a higher level than the lowest possible (this doesn't happen wtih contactless since they work it out afterwards).


I have a no deposit oyster (pre-2008) which has a balance of -£4.97. I have no idea how the odd number of pennies got there as it never had any discounts loaded, nor did I deliberately try to get it negative. I think there was some logic failure with emergency OSIs and continuation exits.

I have a £3-deposit oyster with -£2.95. A TfL machine would give me 10p back if I cashed it in, as they don't stock 5p coins.

I don't recall fully why but I have the impression that going below -£3 will stop the exit barriers from opening. I once saw someone unable to exit a TfL barrier, and being let out and escorted to the top up machine and forced to top up, then let back in to touch out.

Potentially an RPI could report you if they thought you were trying to end up with a negative balance. An RPI once got confused as I had the exact fare on my oyster for a peak time journey but touching in deducts £7 or £8 so he may have seen -£5 or -£6 (not sure what RPIs see exactly). He thought about it for 15 seconds or so and muttered something about maximum fares then let me go.

 

[MikeWh]

Generally you need 5p to touch on a bus regardless of hopper, unless you have already hit a daily cap (bus or zone) when you will be able to touch in with £0.

You can touch in on a bus with a zero balance. When I last purchased an Oyster card from Crayford station, I used it on a 96 bus using the one more journey facility. It was fine.

I don't recall fully why but I have the impression that going below -£3 will stop the exit barriers from opening. I once saw someone unable to exit a TfL barrier, and being let out and escorted to the top up machine and forced to top up, then let back in to touch out.

In general you will be let out if the card was validated at the start of the journey. If you have exceeded the maximum journey time and thus have a negative balance from the initial touch in then it won't let you out. I believe the same is also true if you haven't touched in and the incomplete journey charge makes your balance negative. These things do change from time to time, and different arrangements apply to NR versus TfL gatelines.

I wonder how the bus hopper fare works if your first journey takes you negative? Do you get in with subsequent taps as they're free, even though you're in a negative balance?

No you don't. You can, however, top it up and then the hopper will work again.

 

[paninaro]

You’re theoretically at risk of a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution for intentionally evading the fare there, though HEX’s traditional policy for dealing with fare evaders was giving them a free return journey to be taken immediately.

Is that true? How would they determine you were intentionally evading it, vs normal behaviour of being able to travel on such a negative balance?

 

[island]

Is that true?

Yes.

How would they determine you were intentionally evading it, vs normal behaviour of being able to travel on such a negative balance?

In the same way as normal fare evasion cases are investigated, that is to say by questioning the passenger.

 

[paninaro]

Yes.

In the same way as normal fare evasion cases are investigated, that is to say by questioning the passenger.

But that doesn't seem any different from going into a smaller negative amount from a different station. The post made it sound like there was something special about travelling from Heathrow like that, that would expose you to Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, whereas going into a negative balance somewhere else wouldn't.

Either way they would presumably ask you if you were intending to top-up and either way you'd either answer in a convincing way, or wouldn't

 

[blueberry11]

What would happen if you were charged a maximum fare for exceeding the journey length (~around 90 min) and you have just enough for the journey you intended to take, but not enough for the maximum fare to take place? Will the barriers open on exit?

For example, you have £2 in your account.

 

[MikeWh]

What would happen if you were charged a maximum fare for exceeding the journey length (~around 90 min) and you have just enough for the journey you intended to take, but not enough for the maximum fare to take place? Will the barriers open on exit?

For example, you have £2 in your account.

Probably not. Entering will have deducted the entry charge (same as incomplete journey), so your balance will be negative. The system won't let you record an unstarted journey if your balance is negative.

 

[blueberry11]

Probably not. Entering will have deducted the entry charge (same as incomplete journey), so your balance will be negative. The system won't let you record an unstarted journey if your balance is negative.

So this means you would need to get someone to let you out then (provided that you have touched in at the start of your journey station and have the amount required for your journey but not the maximum fare)? I think that you get two maximum fares so after you spend 90 minutes, you get one maximum fare, then receive another the moment you touch out.

Also, when this sort of maximum fare is applied, it is due to a series of events outside of your control (i.e. not spending hours riding the LU for fun)

 

[MikeWh]

The maximum journey time increases every time you cross a zone boundary. 90 minutes is just 3 zones on weekdays and 1 on Sundays.

If you've been delayed by disruption enough to exceed the time then you are likely to be let out and TfL will adjust the charges for you. It's not a perfect system but the vast majority of journeys have plenty of extra time for all but the most serious disruption.