Misinformation from platform officer

[zapper_09]

I have recently arrived in the UK and went from leeds to york via train. I had earlier brought a ticket and arrived early at the platform. However, the train was cancelled and I went to confirm with a platform officer. He told me that it was cancelled and then told me to go to
A different platform and catch a train to york. I explicitly asked him if that was OK to which he said it should be fine.
However, I was given a penalty by the ticket people and was wondering how likely an appeal would be successful for being given misinformation.

 

[John R]

Can you give us some more information please. What ticket did you hold (type and cost), what day this happened, and which train was cancelled and which one you caught.

I presume you were given what we know as a penalty fare? If you could upload a copy of it, with any identifying details hidden then that would be of help too.

 

[Merseysider]

That depends on what ticket you held (a photo/screenshot would be helpful) and which trains you were due to take, and did take. This will mean accurate advice can be given.

 

[zapper_09]

Can you give us some more information please. What ticket did you hold (type and cost), what day this happened, and which train was cancelled and which one you caught.

I presume you were given what we know as a penalty fare? If you could upload a copy of it, with any identifying details hidden then that would be of help too.

Can you give us some more information please. What ticket did you hold (type and cost), what day this happened, and which train was cancelled and which one you caught.

I presume you were given what we know as a penalty fare? If you could upload a copy of it, with any identifying details hidden then that would be of help too.

I bought a ticket via trainline ‘advance single’ for Ap Northern Only line. I have a valid rail card too which I used. The ticket cost was £3.95 for a 1.5 hr trip. The incident happened 30/11/2023.
I arrived at platform 9D at least 45mins early to catch the 14:29. Checked at 14:08 and it was cancelled at 14:10 i was instructed to catch the 14:13 to saltburn on a Transpennine express.
I did take a screenshot of the phone of the platform officer showing me what to catch.

I bought a ticket via trainline ‘advance single’ for Ap Northern Only line. I have a valid rail card too which I used. The ticket cost was £3.95 for a 1.5 hr trip. The incident happened 30/11/2023.
I arrived at platform 9D at least 45mins early to catch the 14:29. Checked at 14:08 and it was cancelled at 14:10 i was instructed to catch the 14:13 to saltburn on a Transpennine express.
I did take a screenshot of the phone of the platform officer showing me what to catch.

 

[John R]

Could you attach the screenshot please, and also details of the penalty fare ticket you should have received.

On the face of it you were given bad advice to catch the Transpennine Express train, as you had a Northern only advance ticket. Whether you can prove that is another matter - maybe the screenshot you took will help?

Also, looking at Realtimetrains, there was a 1429 to York via Harrogate that ran (from platform 3), and a 1430 to York via the direct route that was cancelled. Are you sure your booked train was cancelled?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Leeds around 1400 on 30/11/2023

Train information at Leeds around 1400 on 30/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[zapper_09]

Here are the screenshots to show my penalty and the screenshot of the phone with the train he told me to catch.

 

[30907]

I bought a ticket via trainline ‘advance single’ for Ap Northern Only line. I have a valid rail card too which I used. The ticket cost was £3.95 for a 1.5 hr trip. The incident happened 30/11/2023.
I arrived at platform 9D at least 45mins early to catch the 14:29. Checked at 14:08 and it was cancelled at 14:10 i was instructed to catch the 14:13 to saltburn on a Transpennine express.
I did take a screenshot of the phone of the platform officer showing me what to catch.

That's useful, as it makes your claim plausible.

Could you also upload a copy of the itinerary you were given?

Your account suggests your ticket was for the 14.29 Leeds to York via Harrogate (which left from platform 3) rather than the 14.30 via Church Fenton which was cancelled and which would normally leave from platform 9D. The confusion is understandable!

PS I see Brissle Girl has spotted this too.

 

[zapper_09]

Does this mean I was instructed to the wrong platform. I did show my train itenarary to the officer.

Does this mean I was instructed to the wrong platform. I did show my train itenarary to the officer.

When i checked there was no platform 3b. Just a 14:30 to york

 

[John R]

Your train is shown as the 1429 to Poppleton although it actually terminates at York. This is because it is slower and so prevents passengers going the much faster route catching it by accident. It’s not surprising you were confused and didn’t think it was your train.

 

[zapper_09]

I was actually keen on catching a longer train ride.
So, based on the information, do you think I have grounds for an appeal.
If I was being directed from northern rail to an express one I feel I should of been told this would be an issue. I could have gotten alternative transportation like a bus.

 

[John R]

I think it will be difficult as your booked train ran. Did you form the belief that your train was cancelled, and thus went to seek advice, or were you in error advised this by a member of station staff?

 

[zapper_09]

On trainline at the time there was no indication what platform to be on. On the board the only york was at 14:30 which I believed to be the train I was to catch and that was cancelled. So I sought out advice.

I also, don’t understand how I was told it was ok to catch another train without a valid ticket. (Although, I did ask twice that it was ok - to which he said yea)

 

[John R]

Hopefully others will chip in with their views, but I think it will be difficult given your train ran and was on time.

 

[zapper_09]

Thank you for your help.
The two grounds of appeal I am contesting this penalty is that, the officer confirmed my train was cancelled (I was there well on time and should of been directed to the correct train)
Secondly informing me to catch another train companies train without a valid ticket for that service.

 

[AlterEgo]

Certainly think there are grounds for appeal under compelling reasons. I’m not a real penalty fares expert but one will be along soon I’m sure; I’m confident they’ll be able to help you with the wording of the appeal.

 

[MotCO]

Is the issue that the platforms displayed the 14.29 train as going to Poppleton, whereas the OP ws looking for a train to York? Not seeing a 14.29 to York, it is understandable that seeing a 14.30 to York the OP thought it was his train, but this was cancelled. So the problem is misinformation on the platform screens, which is surely grounds for an appeal.

 

[jamiearmley]

I would agree it can be very confusing, especially in this case where the destination of York is not advertised for the 1429, but rather advertised as Poppleton instead.

However this pans out : and I wish you the best of luck : please remember in future that Advance tickets are EXACT as to time. If you are booked on the 1429, it will not be the case that your train departs at any other time such as 1430, or indeed 1428, or 1432.

Your screenshot clearly shows the 1429 departing from 3B. Sadly, although I sympathise and encourage you to contact TPE to appeal, I don't want to give you false hope on this occasion.

Best of luck!

 

[zapper_09]

I would agree it can be very confusing, especially in this case where the destination of York is not advertised for the 1429, but rather advertised as Poppleton instead.

However this pans out : and I wish you the best of luck : please remember in future that Advance tickets are EXACT as to time. If you are booked on the 1429, it will not be the case that your train departs at any other time such as 1430, or indeed 1428, or 1432.

Your screenshot clearly shows the 1429 departing from 3B. Sadly, although I sympathise and encourage you to contact TPE to appeal, I don't want to give you false hope on this occasion.

Best of luck!

Thank you, ill bear that in mind for the future.
just an FYI, I did also check the journey details when i arrived but there was nothing so presume I was too early for it to display. So went of the departure boards.

 

[furlong]

You'll want to read paragraph 6 of the regulations and in particular

(d) the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket.

Then construct an argument around that formally making clear the operator has to disprove what you say - specifically - not the other way round, as we frequently seem to see the appeals panels getting the law wrong in their response, hiding behind policy statements instead of requiring the operator to provide first-hand evidence regarding the specific incident.

And then there's a fairly standard set of things you can check for and add to an appeal as additional reasons - for example, most stations don't comply with the requirements for signage. The complete text of the notice needs to be checked as there are sometimes errors (you'll need to upload the whole thing blanking out names and reference numbers etc. if you want people to help with that).

 

[zapper_09]

You'll want to read paragraph 6 of the regulations and in particular


Then construct an argument around that formally making clear the operator has to disprove what you say - specifically - not the other way round, as we frequently seem to see the appeals panels getting the law wrong in their response, hiding behind policy statements instead of requiring the operator to provide first-hand evidence regarding the specific incident.

And then there's a fairly standard set of things you can check for and add to an appeal as additional reasons - for example, most stations don't comply with the requirements for signage. The complete text of the notice needs to be checked as there are sometimes errors (you'll need to upload the whole thing blanking out names and reference numbers etc. if you want people to help with that).

Thank you for this, I’ll read through more properly.

 

[30907]

When i checked there was no platform 3b. Just a 14:30 to york

Your screenshot shows 3b, is that from your ticket?

Platform 3 at Leeds isn’t particularly difficult to find. Where did you check and not find it?

That said, it is a confusing situation.

 

[zapper_09]

I referred both to the trainline and the actual ticket which said destination was York.
At the time I checked trainlines journey (like 45mins prior), there was no information about what platform to be on so referred to the departure board.

 

[John R]

It's clear that the fact that the final destination of the train was not shown on the station and online departure boards confused you, and this should be part of your appeal. However, if a train is shown as the 1429 on your ticket, then that is the departure time you should have been looking for, and not assuming the 1430 was the same train, notwithstanding that it was also due to terminate at York.

 

[30907]

Is the issue that the platforms displayed the 14.29 train as going to Poppleton, whereas the OP ws looking for a train to York? Not seeing a 14.29 to York, it is understandable that seeing a 14.30 to York the OP thought it was his train, but this was cancelled. So the problem is misinformation on the platform screens, which is surely grounds for an appeal.

I am not sure that is misinformation. The vast majority of trains from Leeds to York won't show York as the destination for obvious reasons, and if the ticket comes with an itinerary showing the intermediate stations it's quite easy to spot the difference.

The screenshot from the staff member's phone is IMO the best ground for appeal.

 

[anothertyke]

I am not sure that is misinformation. The vast majority of trains from Leeds to York won't show York as the destination for obvious reasons, and if the ticket comes with an itinerary showing the intermediate stations it's quite easy to spot the difference.

That's true but all the trains via Church Fenton will show York as a calling point.

At Leeds station, the screens show the destination of the 1429 as Poppleton in order to prevent York passengers boarding a train which takes an hour longer than direct.

Maybe 'I am new to this country, I was confused, so I sought advice and have been penalised' might be worth a try? However, that may fail because that ticket was not only not valid on a different operator but was not even valid on the cancelled 1430 ex Blackpool which,by the way, would have been about twice the fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Starting to wonder what questions were specifically asked by the OP to the member of platform staff at Leeds. As the 1430 Northern train was cancelled, the next train for York would have been the TPE train which ran just a few minutes later and possibly from a changed platform. Of course, the OP only ever had a train specific ticket valid on the 1429 to York (via Harrogate) which did run, although the display boards at Leeds wouldn't have shown it as running through to York.

Can easily see why confusion may have ensued, but are these valid grounds for appealing the PF?

 

[Western Sunset]

In what other industry would someone be penalised for following the information given by a member of staff? I love railways, but sometimes (more frequently nowadays) I wonder if TOCs really understand the concept of customer care.

 

[Starmill]

Starting to wonder what questions were specifically asked by the OP to the member of platform staff at Leeds. As the 1430 Northern train was cancelled, the next train for York would have been the TPE train which ran just a few minutes later and possibly from a changed platform. Of course, the OP only ever had a train specific ticket valid on the 1429 to York (via Harrogate) which did run, although the display boards at Leeds wouldn't have shown it as running through to York.

Clearly the member of staff didn't know that the 1429 on the ticket was actually a train not advertised as calling at York, otherwise they'd have told the customer to get on it when they were shown the relevant itinerary.

If that's the case how can the customer be expected to know?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Clearly the member of staff didn't know that the 1429 on the ticket was actually a train not advertised as calling at York, otherwise they'd have told the customer to get on it when they were shown the relevant itinerary.

If that's the case how can the customer be expected to know?

But did the OP ever show the member of staff their ticket? Seems that only cancellation of the 1430 was ever discussed.

 

[spag23]

But did the OP ever show the member of staff their ticket?

On the other hand did the staff member (obviously better informed on railways times and routes than the passenger) ask to see the ticket before giving advice/permission?