Missed last train home due to TFL delays

[Belgravia]

I recently missed my last train home from Waterloo as there were delays of 20+ minutes on the Jubilee line.

I assume that in this situation TFL won’t compensate me for my expensive taxi?

Would it be different if I had a paper ticket to a specific London zone?

 

[avid2424]

Do you mean a long wait on a platform for a Jubilee line train

Or a delay in terms of the Jubilee train crawling along and with huge waits at each station

Contactless would give an easy record of times of tap ins and tap outs so would seem to have the edge over a paper ticket

Are you willing to share your original planned journey including starting time and from what Jubilee line station and the time of your train from Waterloo and the details of tap ins and tap outs complete with times and a description of the delay

 

[Belgravia]

I commute to Canary Wharf from Guildford (via Waterloo).

The last train from Waterloo to Guildford is 0033 and often make use of it.

I tapped in at Canary Wharf at 0008 only to find a 20 minute wait for the next Jubilee line train which has not happened to me before.

I use SWR Tap2Go combined with an PAYG Oyster for my travel. Veterand Railcard discount is applied to both.

I am aware that a paper Anytime Day Return to Zone U12 is also an option (and marginally cheaper).

My questions are:

1) Am I entitled to claim back the taxi (I assume not, as was probably not within minimum connection times)

2) What are the minimum connection times? (I.e. what’s the latest I should be tapping into Canary Wharf)

3) Theoretically, if I was within the minimum connection times and I still missed my train, would TFL/SWR be responsible for getting me to my destination?

 

[Snow1964]

In blunt terms (sorry) if you are using pay as you go, you have no advertised connection. You have two separate journeys (by unrelated operators) and a connection time of your choosing and your risk of making it.

So up to you to present yourself for the train at Waterloo by the advertised start time. Effectively same principle as if you were in pub next to Waterloo but didn't leave sufficient time to catch the train. Your problem, your cost to get alternative.

 

[Belgravia]

I thought that would be the case. Would it be different if I had a paper ticket from Guildford to Zone U12?

 

[AlterEgo]

I thought that would be the case. Would it be different if I had a paper ticket from Guildford to Zone U12?

It would protect your connection but you haven’t left enough time on this occasion I’m afraid. At that time of night BRTimes suggests the connection time is 15+20 minutes, so 35 minutes.

 

[island]

In practice, even with a through ticket you'd have an uphill battle getting TfL to cough up for a knock-on effect like that, even if you'd allowed enough time, which you didn't.

For the record, the connecting time from Canary Wharf to Waterloo is 10 minutes between 0700-1900, 20 minutes between 0001-0529, and 15 minutes otherwise. To this must be added the 15 minute connection time at Waterloo.

 

[miklcct]

In blunt terms (sorry) if you are using pay as you go, you have no advertised connection. You have two separate journeys (by unrelated operators) and a connection time of your choosing and your risk of making it.

So up to you to present yourself for the train at Waterloo by the advertised start time. Effectively same principle as if you were in pub next to Waterloo but didn't leave sufficient time to catch the train. Your problem, your cost to get alternative.

There is an advertised connection between Canary Wharf and Waterloo in the National Rail timetable data, which is 20 minutes between 00:01 and 05:29 (but it is a transfer leg instead of a tube leg). Can't the OP rely on this fact to claim TfL delays?

However, unfortunately, adding 15 minutes connection time at Waterloo onto 20 minutes means he should be on the tube 35 minutes before the train departure, so no, the OP didn't leave enough time for an advertised connection.

 

[jon81uk]

May not have helped as you only had 25 minutes to get to Waterloo but you could have done DLR, northern, Bakerloo or DLR, Central, Northern. as an alternative route. But that would likely have take close to 30 minutes and therefore still got you to Waterloo too late.

 

[avid2424]

I assume TFL have given you a full refund for the Jubilee bit - as clearly the delay was more than 15 minutes. Unless TFL have the delay for some other reason. They should tell you the reason if they have not made the refund

 

[John R]

Just looking at the TfL journey planner, unless you were travelling on a night when the night tube runs then the last departure from Canary Wharf appears to be at 0012, so you were probably chancing your arm a bit to rely on that to get you to Waterloo in time anyway given the impact if you miss the last departure from there.

 

[Belgravia]

What I’m taking from this is that I would need a combined ticket, and only then would I have any kind of chance of being able to claim against TFL.

Then assuming I would need to allow 35 minutes (20+15) before the train, the latest I would need to tap in at Canary Wharf would be 2358.

 

[Dstock7080]

Just looking at the TfL journey planner, unless you were travelling on a night when the night tube runs then the last departure from Canary Wharf appears to be at 0012, so you were probably chancing your arm a bit to rely on that to get you to Waterloo in time anyway given the impact if you miss the last departure from there.

Last departures from Canary Wharf westbound (Mon-Thur):
00.08 Wembley Park
00.12 Stanmore
00.16½ Wembley Park
00.21 Stanmore

 

[AlterEgo]

What I’m taking from this is that I would need a combined ticket, and only then would I have any kind of chance of being able to claim against TFL.

Then assuming I would need to allow 35 minutes (20+15) before the train, the latest I would need to tap in at Canary Wharf would be 2358.

That's correct, on both counts.

 

[miklcct]

That's correct, on both counts.

What is the difference, legally, on a through ticket compared to using PAYG to pay for the tube fare and a ticket for the National Rail fare?

Will it also be different if the National Rail journey is totally within the Oyster area, and the same Oyster card is used for both the tube and National Rail?

 

[Belgravia]

And I suppose having a paper ticket would mean to evidence trail of when you actually got to Canary Wharf; making the theoretical compensation even harder to claim!

Think I’ll just leave a bit more time in future so I have time to get to Waterloo by other means.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What is the difference, legally, on a through ticket compared to using PAYG to pay for the tube fare and a ticket for the National Rail fare?

Will it also be different if the National Rail journey is totally within the Oyster area, and the same Oyster card is used for both the tube and National Rail?

Someone who knows what they're talking about will no doubt put me right, but my understanding is that it's about what service was advertised when you bought the ticket.

With a paper ticket, you buy it beforehand - even if this is from the machine only a couple of minutes before boarding the train. When you buy the ticket is the point when you decide whether the trains offered will suit you.

With an Oyster or contactless the point when you decide if the service is what you want is when you tap on the card reader - and it's fairly unlikely (although by no means impossible) that the train service will change between then and you boarding your train.

Applying these principles to the case here (and leaving aside that for Delay Repay the connection time to Waterloo would always have been inadequate) the OP will have accepted the Jubilee Line service as it was then operating when they tapped in at Canary Wharf. So TfL were providing what the OP expected (had they checked before tapping in). And the OP is unable to treat it as one through pre-booked journey because the Jubilee Line element was booked on the fly.

 

[island]

What is the difference, legally, on a through ticket compared to using PAYG to pay for the tube fare and a ticket for the National Rail fare?

A contract is formed when you buy a ticket, and the train operators on which the ticket is valid need to honour it by taking you through to your final destination, based on the information provided at the time the contract’s formed. When the passenger opts for pay as you go thereby choosing not to enter into a contract in advance, that obligation does not exist. (The passenger will gain the advantage of a lower fare, more flexibility to change their plans, and the time value of money on paying later.)

Will it also be different if the National Rail journey is totally within the Oyster area, and the same Oyster card is used for both the tube and National Rail?

It’s a grey area. The guidance I would give is that adverse issues or facts a passenger is aware of, or could readily be expected to know or find out, at the time they enter into the contract by buying a ticket or touching in, cannot later be used by the passenger as the basis of a claim against the transport provider. But each case will turn on its own facts.

 

[avid2424]

As a side question. Is it possible, or rather extremely reasonably possible, to know that there is a 20 minute delay when you touch in. Does that depend on information screens being available near the touch in point

Or would you only find out once you are on the platform. And that might also depend on whether the platform screens display information. And indeed whether such information is correct

 

[JonathanH]

Is it possible, or rather extremely reasonably possible, to know that there is a 20 minute delay when you touch in. Does that depend on information screens being available near the touch in point

There is live departure information on the TfL website.

This for Canary Wharf - https://tfl.gov.uk/tube/stop/940GZZLUCYF/canary-wharf-underground-station?lineId=jubilee

 

[avid2424]

Is it extremely reasonable for anyone to access the TfL website FIRST. And then probably miss the next train. Rather than touch in and go to the platform. And only at that point check the TfL website assuming there is an internet signal

The OP was dashing to Waterloo to get the last onward train

Suggesting the OP entered into a contract based on the Jubilee line operating normally for the time of the OP’s travel

 

[Haywain]

The OP was dashing to Waterloo to get the last onward train

But not allowing enough time for protected connections.

 

[avid2424]

I think we are all agreed that the OP did not allow enough time for protected connections

The point I was making was that the OP would base his contract on the Jubilee running normally - and would have no reason to know of a 20 minute delay until the OP was on the platform For the OP it matters not, but for other people in slightly different circumstances I trust TFL could not claim any get out as the passenger would have no reason to know of the 20 minute delay until after the passenger had touched in

TfL do delay repay Re 15 minutes re a tube journey. I am hoping that TfL are not suggesting that you jump the barriers and check the platform screens before going back to touch in. And that if the screens say 15+ minute wait then delay repay will not be allowed because TfL have a timetable of the day at that particular time

 

[Fawkes Cat]

And that if the screens say 15+ minute wait then delay repay will not be allowed because TfL have a timetable of the day at that particular time

Isn't 'Timetable of the day' an NRCoT concept? In which case it wouldn't apply on the Underground (Overground and Elizabeth Line being rather different).

 

[Starmill]

Have you made a claim for a Service Delay Refund? The most you could get back would be what you paid for the journey from Canary Wharf to Waterloo, which I guess was £2.80? Information is here: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/tube-and-dlr-delays

 

[maniacmartin]

My understanding, based on correspondance between me, First Capital Connect and TfL many years ago, is that a journey cannot begin or end with a Fixed Link - ie a Fixed Link must be sandwiched between two National Rail legs. This is why not all tube station have fixed links defined - only those that you can interchange at when using the Maltese Cross on the ticket to cross London (see National Rail's "Crossing London" page).

When you combine an Oyster tube journey with a non-Oyster National Rail journey, or buy a National Rail ticket to Zone U***, the tube isn't used to bridge the gap in the middle of a through NR ticket. Instead it's a National Rail journey and a tube journey tacked onto each other. I believe that in that case, the time you must allow for the tube part in this case is as defined in TfL's timetables and conditions, not in National Rail's Fixed Links. The documentation of how Zone U and boundary zone tickets work is sadly lacking, but I'd like to think that if there were no delays known about when a through ticket to Zone U** was bought, one of the operators would be liable to help if the connection was missed.

 

[Starmill]

My understanding, based on correspondance between me, First Capital Connect and TfL many years ago, is that a journey cannot begin or end with a Fixed Link - ie a Fixed Link must be sandwiched between two National Rail legs. This is why not all tube station have fixed links defined - only those that you can interchange at when using the Maltese Cross on the ticket to cross London (see National Rail's "Crossing London" page).

When you combine an Oyster tube journey with a non-Oyster National Rail journey, or buy a National Rail ticket to Zone U***, the tube isn't used to bridge the gap in the middle of a through NR ticket. Instead it's a National Rail journey and a tube journey tacked onto each other. I believe that in that case, the time you must allow for the tube part in this case is as defined in TfL's timetables and conditions, not in National Rail's Fixed Links. The documentation of how Zone U and boundary zone tickets work is sadly lacking, but I'd like to think that if there were no delays known about when a through ticket to Zone U** was bought, one of the operators would be liable to help if the connection was missed.

Sounds a bit like someone was providing a terribly convenient excuse to avoid paying out there rather than speaking neutrally on principle, I must say.

 

[miklcct]

My understanding, based on correspondance between me, First Capital Connect and TfL many years ago, is that a journey cannot begin or end with a Fixed Link - ie a Fixed Link must be sandwiched between two National Rail legs. This is why not all tube station have fixed links defined - only those that you can interchange at when using the Maltese Cross on the ticket to cross London (see National Rail's "Crossing London" page).

This certainly isn't true with the current retailing systems. You can buy a Maltese Cross ticket from a National Rail station to another National Rail station where the tube leg is at the beginning or the end, for example, Woking to Stratford.

The reason that not all tube stations are included is simply the tube isn't part of National Rail. Some tube stations are included because they are used for National Rail replacement buses, such as Stanmore or Newbury Park, or because they are the terminal of tube trains running through onto Network Rail tracks such as Elephant & Castle Underground.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

the OP would base his contract on the Jubilee running normally - and would have no reason to know of a 20 minute delay until the OP was on the platform

Plenty of apps have real-time for the Underground