My battle with MerseyRail

[RareRailUser]

Hi All, new user to these forums here, looking for advice on a penalty fare I have been issued by MerseyRail.

A brief backstory, on Tuesday the 27th of August my car was booked in for a recall at Cheshire oaks, I dropped the car off and walked to Ellesmere Port station to head to Liverpool One via Liverpool Central.
Upon arriving to Ellesmere station I checked the Trainline app for train times and to see which platform I required, this was the first time I would be using this station, typically I go via bidston. I saw that the train I needed was due to depart in the next 2 or 3 minutes, I simply purchased the ticket without second thought and then boarded the train without much thought.

After 15 minutes or so the ticket guy came around and I confidently shown him my Trainline app screen, he seemed to get excited and immediately went for his bodycam record button before informing me that he would be issuing me with a penalty notice for failing to produce a valid ticket, he also took me over to some notice board explaining what is and is not considered a valid ticket.

When I arrived at Liverpool Central I showed my PFN to the people working the gates, they asked where I got on from and when I said E Port they said that they thought this station was not manned and wouldn’t have been able to collect my tickets from the station if I’d tried to, and that I definitely should appeal it they then let me through the gates. I went to the ticket part to collect the tickets.

I then went to McDonald’s in Liverpool one, jumped on the free WiFi and submitted my appeal, using what I had just been told regarding the station being unmanned I stated that I did try to collect them but there was nobody there to do so.

Hello,

Today I received a penalty fare notice for the following reason:

- Unable a valid ticket for the entire journey, having travelled from a station that operates a penalty fare scheme where ticket issuing facilities were available.

The station which I was travelling from (Ellesmere Port) did not have ticket facilities available at the time of the train departure. I then proceeded to purchase a ticket via Trainline *before* boarding the train which I can and will prove.

At the point in which the issuer ( Collector 126546) attempted to explain the reason for issuing the penalty notice, he drew my attention to a poster that is displayed on the inside of the carriage regarding Trainline purchases not being valid without ticket collection. I then explained that I did in fact try to collect my ticket from the departing station but was unable to do so due to lack of manning in the collection office or ticket collection machine. His response to this was simply that “he doesn’t make the rules”. It is very important to note that the poster that he showed to me was on the inside of the train and was not visible prior to me boarding.

In the following document uploads, please note the timestamp on the confirmation email for purchasing a train ticket and please also note the time of the departing train.

Confirmation email: 9:41
Train Departure Time: 9:42

Had there been more time to dedicate for waiting around for a member of staff at Ellesmere Port station to acquire a ticket then of course I would have done so, unfortunately I did not have such time available to me and did what logically was the most correct thing at the time which was purchase a ticket using an app that I already am familiar with and have installed on my phone. I believe wholeheartedly that anybody in the same situation would have done the same, penalising somebody from trying to do the right thing is immoral.

Please take the above into consideration.

Kind regards

The outcome of this appeal was rejected, the following is what was said:

Dear Mr,
To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction
with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will
both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information
about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.
Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at
all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and
Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which
issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required
under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a
valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.
I understand the ticket was bought online but had not been collected prior to boarding.
In accordance with the terms and conditions of use, any pre-ordered ticket must be available for inspection
during travel as evidence of a passenger's right to make a rail journey.
Pre-booked products must be printed before a journey starts in readiness for ticket inspection to take
place.
Where a paper version of a ticket has been ordered and the facility to print the relevant ticket is working
normally at the time of travel (as it was in this case), it is the passenger's responsibility to collect it before
commencing their journey and produce it for inspection when required.
It is my understanding that, since late August 2024, passengers have been able to collect tickets that have
been purchased from Trainline, and other 3rd party sites, from ticket machines at certain Merseyrail
stations (including the one from which you travelled).
Because the ticket had not been collected and a physical inspection of the ticket could not have taken
place at the time of travel, it has therefore been concluded by Penalty Services that the Penalty Fare Notice
should stand.
Penalty Services Ltd.
Registered in England. Company Number: 10672329.
Registered Office: 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL.
www.penaltyservices.co.uk
A person's right to the reimbursement of any uncollected or unused tickets would be explained in the terms
and conditions of issue.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been
unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision. Any further appeal will be considered by a different
appeal assessor. If re-appealing, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and
also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be
submitted by post to: Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach,
Woodbridge, IP12 1BL. or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14
days of the date this letter was received.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any
outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty
Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare
applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train
company or its debt recovery agency.
Please also be aware that if you do not re-appeal this decision or pay the penalty fare within 14 days of the
date this letter was received, the train operating company will be entitled to commence court proceedings to
recover the penalty fare.
Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day
after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares)
Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date
received is the letter date.
HOW TO PAY
You can pay in any of the following ways:
• By credit or debit card online at www.merseyrail.org/paymynotice.
• By credit or debit card by telephoning 0151 434 4535 and selecting option 1.
• By postal order made payable to: Merseyrail Electrics Ltd and sent to Merseyrail Electrics Ltd, P.O.
Box 6576, Liverpool, L691XZ. Please endorse the back of the postal order with your Penalty Fare
Notice Number (starting MRPF) and your full name.
Thank you for using Penalty Services.

Now, to add insult to injury, on my return journey home on the afternoon of the 27th of August, there was a woman on the train sat near me, she dropped her bank card without noticing, I told her and she was very grateful. Anyhow, when the ticket guy came I presented my now-collected ticket, he then went to the card dropping woman, she didn’t have a ticket, when asked why she doesn’t have a ticket she said that her bank card wasn’t working so she just got on the train, ticket guy confirmed “so you didn’t even try to buy a ticket?” To which she confirmed, because her card wasn’t working. He said “eee arrr love, try it in this machine” and pulls out a card machine for her to buy a ticket!!? I don’t wish that she got landed with a fine, but why on earth was I not given this opportunity to buy a physical ticket??!

I am feeling very let down, and if I have to pay the fine then so be it, however if anybody has some information that I could use in a reappeal then I would be very appreciative.

Thanks in advance

 

[Gloster]

I suggest that you obscure the reference numbers in the first and last images.

 

[gray1404]

We need to see the entire plenty fare notice please. I can already spot something which may give rise to appeal but we need to see the entire notice.

It is often only at the third appeal does common sense prevail and is that appeal panel truly independent.

 

[furlong]

Reappeal on the grounds that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations because the amount charged is incorrect.

The Penalty Fare authorises travel to Liverpool.

(2A) In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).

So the fare charged for that notice MUST be the fare to Liverpool.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

The rejection letter states that Trainline tickets can be collected from the machine at Ellesmere Port. Not so states National Rail: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/ellesmere-port/

 

[island]

The rejection letter states that Trainline tickets can be collected from the machine at Ellesmere Port. Not so states National Rail: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/ellesmere-port/

This is a red-herring.

The OP should have purchased a ticket from that machine.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The rejection letter states that Trainline tickets can be collected from the machine at Ellesmere Port. Not so states National Rail: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/ellesmere-port/

As Ellesmere Port is a station at the end of Merseyrail with (a few) onward services provided by Northern, are we certain that there isn't a Northern ticket machine? By the same count, was the ticket office open?

The reason I ask is that it's possible to collect tickets from Northern machines or from open ticket offices, but you can't collect from Merseyrail machines.

(Edit - but I now see that @island has pointed out that this may be irrelevant. So please ignore.)

 

[scrapy]

When you purchase on Traininline app it clearly states you should collect your ticket from the ticket office (open on a Tuesday 05.30 to 14.00). Was the ticket office closed for some reason on the day you travelled?

 

[RareRailUser]

We need to see the entire plenty fare notice please. I can already spot something which may give rise to appeal but we need to see the entire notice.

It is often only at the third appeal does common sense prevail and is that appeal panel truly independent.

Hi Gray1404, I’ve attached another photo with more information, but I haven’t got a photo of the entire notice, one can be taken later today if more information is required.

 

[gray1404]

Appeal again on the basis that the PF has not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

1. The penalty fare is for the incorrect amount as it authorises a journey to Liverpool Central, for which the fare would have been £6.85 and this is the fare that has to be charged, not £4.55.

2. The ticket office was not open when it should have been. You therefore collected your ticket at the first opportunity.

Attach a copy of the collected tickets too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

For future reference, if you are making this journey again the cheapest option is a Merseyrail day saver. £6.20 and this can only be purchased at the station or on the Merseyrail website. https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/ and shown on your phone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail now allows collection from their TVMs (finally!) - did this change take place before or after your journey?

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail now allows collection from their TVMs (finally!) - did this change take place before or after your journey?

Do they? Since when? Source for this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they? Since when? Source for this?

Ticket on Departure

Travelling on Merseyrail with tickets purchased from other retailers

www.merseyrail.org

The only stations on the Merseyrail network where tickets can be collected from ticket vending machines are:

• Chester
• Liverpool South Parkway
• Liverpool Lime Street mainline
• Ellesmere Port
• Capenhurst
• Overpool
• Little Sutton
• Bache

I don't know when this changed but it's fairly recent. Might have been in another thread.

Shame it's not all TVMs, it would be a queue saver and avoid confusion which I've seen a few times.

 

[gray1404]

Must be very recent. Either way it's not unreasonable for a the OP to rely on the notice on Trainline website (see above) saying it needs to be collected from the booking office. The OP was travelling at a time the booking office should have been open but was advised it wasn't.

 

[scrapy]

Must be very recent. Either way it's not unreasonable for a the OP to rely on the notice on Trainline website (see above) saying it needs to be collected from the booking office. The OP was travelling at a time the booking office should have been open but was advised it wasn't.

The gate line staff at Liverpool Central said they thought it was unstaffed. This was after they travelled and the RPI who issued the penalty obviously thought otherwise. Obviously Merseyrail will have records. Incidentally I've been told that if the ticket office is closed then the machines are not accessible either as the machine is in the building (I've never been to Ellesmere Port to see the layout, a picture on Google also suggests there is a machine outside on the platform). But if that is the case then the penalty should not have been issued on the grounds that there were no ticket purchasing facilities available (unless just the window was closed but the building was open).

I doubt you can base an appeal on what people at a different station 'think' is the case. This advise was not given to the OP before travelling and did not form part of their decision whether to board the train or not.

 

[185]

The machine iirc is on the Liverpool platform at the foot of the stairs, however due to breakins and vandalism Merseyrail fitted a metal cupboard over it with a pull-down roller shutter making it as useful as a chocolate teapot when the booking office shuts.

 

[WirralLine]

The machine iirc is on the Liverpool platform at the foot of the stairs, however due to breakins and vandalism Merseyrail fitted a metal cupboard over it with a pull-down roller shutter making it as useful as a chocolate teapot when the booking office shuts.

The machine is indeed on the platform, usually from experience if the office is open the machine is set to "out of service" (or it used to be). The machine is there for when the office is closed, however the local kids like to pull the roller shutter on the machine down making it look like it's not working.

 

[Adam Williams]

from experience if the office is open the machine is set to "out of service" (or it used to be)

This is perhaps the stupidest thing I've read today

 

[vjm1975]

This is perhaps the stupidest thing I've read today

Never seen it set to out of service when the ticket office is open. Use it frequently.

 

[RareRailUser]

Reappeal on the grounds that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations because the amount charged is incorrect.

The Penalty Fare authorises travel to Liverpool.



So the fare charged for that notice MUST be the fare to Liverpool.

Thank you for this, I have just sent my reappeal, I took a look at the regulations myself and it seems clear as day that the incorrect amount was charged. It makes me wonder how this is possible, on the penalty fare it says Journey From: Ellesmere Port to Port Sunlight (I was going to Liverpool central).

I know that the station were were near at the time of the notice being issued was port sunlight.

Anyhow I’m a bit nervous as this is now my 3rd appeal, but I would like to thank you for your time.

 

[RareRailUser]

Just received notification from penalty services that my 3rd and final appeal has been unsuccessful. It has left me feeling frustrated as the points I highlighted in the 3rd (points made by you good people of these forums) seem undeniably factual, but this could just be confirmation bias I guess. So, although I’m going to have to penalty, I’d just like to get further clarification on how the penalty is calculated.

I boarded the train from Ellesmere Port, going to Liverpool central (which my invalid digital Trainline ticket shows), collector on board the train issues me a PFN at port sunlight station. I continue my journey and get off at Liverpool Central.

The penalty fare that I was charged is £104.55, but Mersey Rail website says

A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey​

My “intended” journey was Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Central, so why was a charged to Port Sunlight?

 

[ainsworth74]

The amount of Penalty Fare, in England, is given by Regulation 9(1A) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as being:

(1A) In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—

(a)£100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b)if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

(Note: Regulation 5(1) is the bit that says if you don't produce a valid ticket then a penalty fare is due.)

A "full single applicable" is then defined later as being:

(2A) In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).

If we then turn to Regulation 5(5A) we will see that:

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—

(a) a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or

(b) otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call.

I'm going to assume therefore that the collector opted to use branch (b) of regulation 5(5A) and charged you to the next station at which the train was due to make a call (presumably Port Sunlight) rather than branch (a) where they could have issued it through to Liverpool Central if you requested it and they agreed it was reasonable to do so. Merseyrail's website has, I would suggest, managed to slightly mangle the legal position by presumably attempting to simplify the situation for the lay person.

 

[Egg Centric]

Just received notification from penalty services that my 3rd and final appeal has been unsuccessful. It has left me feeling frustrated as the points I highlighted in the 3rd (points made by you good people of these forums) seem undeniably factual, but this could just be confirmation bias I guess. So, although I’m going to have to penalty, I’d just like to get further clarification on how the penalty is calculated.

I boarded the train from Ellesmere Port, going to Liverpool central (which my invalid digital Trainline ticket shows), collector on board the train issues me a PFN at port sunlight station. I continue my journey and get off at Liverpool Central.

The penalty fare that I was charged is £104.55, but Mersey Rail website says


My “intended” journey was Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Central, so why was a charged to Port Sunlight?

The basic idea is that to keep things in accordance with the regs you're meant to be charged to the next station, unless you speifically ask otherwise. In this case you've had the "best" of two worlds - they've done that, which is what they're supposed to - but also authorised you to travel to Liverpool Central (if you read the 2nd paragraph of their verbiage).

 

[ainsworth74]

The basic idea is that to keep things in accordance with the regs you're meant to be charged to the next station, unless you speifically ask otherwise. In this case you've had the "best" of two worlds - they've done that, which is what they're supposed to - but also authorised you to travel to Liverpool Central (if you read the 2nd paragraph of their verbiage).

Huh so they have, I didn't read that bit of the PF. How surprisingly generous of Merseyrail for once! I wonder if that's just default wording on all their PFs or if that bit is actually customisable?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The penalty fare that I was charged is £104.55

One point - if you pay this soon enough, you may only have to pay £54.55.

If you look back at what you were given, there’s a £50 discount if you pay within 21 days. But the clock stops for while you have an appeal in progress. But you have finished appealing so the clock is running again. But you might still have time to get the £50 discount if you’re quick.

 

[gray1404]

Also worth noting that as you have had an appeal head regardless of the outcome, merseyrail are now statute barred from prosecuting you for this offence anyway.

 

[Watershed]

Also worth noting that as you have had an appeal head regardless of the outcome, merseyrail are now statute barred from prosecuting you for this offence anyway.

Unfortunately they are only barred from prosecuting under section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. They are not barred from prosecuting under the Merseyrail Byelaws as these are not covered by the bar on prosecution, which only covers the (non-Merseyrail) Railway Byelaws.

 

[John Palmer]

The Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014 are expressed to have been made under Section 46(1) Railways Act 2005, and as such appear to come within the scope of Regulation 11(4)(b)(iv) Penalty Fares Regulations 2018. They therefore seem to be subject in this respect to prosecution restrictions no different from those applicable to the Railway Byelaws 2005, though the latter were made under different authority (Section 219 Transport Act 2000, as referred to in Regulation 11(4)(b)(iii) of the 2018 Regulations),

 

[island]

The Merseyrail Railway Byelaws 2014 are expressed to have been made under Section 46(1) Railways Act 2005, and as such appear to come within the scope of Regulation 11(4)(b)(iv) Penalty Fares Regulations 2018. They therefore seem to be subject in this respect to prosecution restrictions no different from those applicable to the Railway Byelaws 2005, though the latter were made under different authority (Section 219 Transport Act 2000, as referred to in Regulation 11(4)(b)(iii) of the 2018 Regulations),

I would agree. From memory it is the Newcastle Metro that can prosecute despite an appealed PF.