My idea to extend the Bakerloo Line to Romford

[lancededcena]

This is my first post on this forum.

What if the Bakerloo Line extended to the East of London rather than the South?

Following Stations in order:

• New Kent Road
• Bermondsey (for the Jubilee Line)
• Limehouse (For DLR and c2c services)
• Devons Road (For DLR)
• Bromley-By-Bow (For Hammersmith - City and District Lines)
• Stratford (For Central,Jubilee,DLR, North London and c2c, Greater Anglia and Southeastern services from Stratford International.)
• Leyton (For Central and Gospel Oak to Barking Line)
• Leytonstone (For Central line)
• Wanstead (For Central line)
• Redbridge (For Central line)
• Gants Hill (For Central line)
• Newbury Park (For Central Line)
• Goodmayes Barley Lane
• Chadwell High Road
• Romford (For Greater Anglia services)

 

[telstarbox]

Apart from people in the New Kent Road area, who would benefit from this and why would it be better than using existing services?

 

[starrymarkb]

Could you fit the Bakerloo and Central service between Stratford and Newbury park or would you be looking at boring extra tunnels underneath the Central?

 

[lancededcena]

Could you fit the Bakerloo and Central service between Stratford and Newbury park or would you be looking at boring extra tunnels underneath the Central?

The Central and Bakerloo Line share the rails together.

Apart from people in the New Kent Road area, who would benefit from this and why would it be better than using existing services?

The Greater Anglia Rail services are expensive and it is to stop overcrowding at Suburban services.

 

[starrymarkb]

The Greater Anglia Metro is about to come under TfL Crossrail (which will offer high frequency services direct into Central London)

A few issues with the track share, how do you propose fitting Bakerloo trains between the intensive Central service (and you can't reduce it because Stratford to Liverpool Street is one of the busiest sections on the network). Also if something breaks on the Central (ie 1992 stock), it'll screw up the Bakerloo and possibly LO aswell

 

[lancededcena]

The Greater Anglia Metro is about to come under TfL Crossrail (which will offer high frequency services direct into Central London)

A few issues with the track share, how do you propose fitting Bakerloo trains between the intensive Central service (and you can't reduce it because Stratford to Liverpool Street is one of the busiest sections on the network). Also if something breaks on the Central (ie 1992 stock), it'll screw up the Bakerloo and possibly LO aswell

How about this then:

4 Central Line trains every 3 minutes then 3 Bakerloo trains every 3 minutes.

If the 1992 stock breaks down. All Bakerloo Line trains will terminate at Stratford.

 

[D365]

Ah, so this is your proposal for taking over the 'Rominster', as I so nicknamed it on another thread. But peak time only? How so, combined 4th-rail/OHL electrification? Because any new Deep Tube stock will definitely not have AC pickup and dual-electrification of the branch is unjustifiably complicated and expensive. It would have to been one or the other; LU or mainline. And I see it more likely, if at all, that a junction would be instated with the District line and that it might take over itself with S7 stock. Though that might mean adding a few to the order, or even retaining some D Stock! Bit too late for all that anyway. Or otherwise, maybe LTS could take it over.

As for an explanation on how the plan is not a good idea (aside from weaving through the Docklands - another line to the city isn't needed with Crossrail imminent!), I think starrymarkb has explained the track-share issue well - also, the Bakerloo would need ATO/compatible trains and nobody knows when Deep Tube will finally come around!

How about this then:

4 Central Line trains every 3 minutes then 3 Bakerloo trains every 3 minutes.

If the 1992 stock breaks down. All Bakerloo Line trains will terminate at Stratford.

So Bakerloo will get its own platforms? I'm not even sure where you could fit them in! Though I am pretty sure that isn't enough for Central. And what if the Bakerloo side of things screws up?

 

[lancededcena]

Ah, so this is your proposal for taking over the 'Rominster', as I so nicknamed it on another thread. But peak time only? How so, combined 4th-rail/OHL electrification? Because any new Deep Tube stock will definitely not have AC pickup and dual-electrification of the branch is unjustifiably complicated and expensive. It would have to been one or the other; LU or mainline. And I see it more likely, if at all, that a junction would be instated with the District line and that it might take over itself with S7 stock. Though that might mean adding a few to the order, or even retaining some D Stock! Bit too late for all that anyway. Or otherwise, maybe LTS could take it over.

As for an explanation on how the plan is not a good idea (aside from weaving through the Docklands - another line to the city isn't needed with Crossrail imminent!), I think starrymarkb has explained the track-share issue well - also, the Bakerloo would need ATO/compatible trains and nobody knows when Deep Tube will finally come around!




So Bakerloo will get its own platforms? I'm not even sure where you could fit them in! Though I am pretty sure that isn't enough for Central. And what if the Bakerloo side of things screws up?

Lets go this in order:

1. TfL 'will' take over the Greater Angila Romford to Upminster Branch and the line will be electrified to 4th Rail. The District line has nothing to do with it.

2. The tracks will be entirely underground until it reaches to Leytonstone where it meets the Central Line. It could wait until ATO trains come or it can stop at Stratford, wait for another driver then proceeds.

3. Stratford station has its own walkway to the underground tunnels in the Bakerloo Line.

4. All Central line trains will stop at Stratford then.

 

[D365]

1. TfL 'will' take over the Greater Angila Romford to Upminster Branch and the line will be electrified to 4th Rail. The District line has nothing to do with it.

This is your plan. Fine, but what will happen to the existing OHLE, as it can not easily co-exist with 4th rail as I understand it. My concern is that you state in your OP that the Bakerloo will only provide the 'Rominster' a "limited service (peak time)". What will provide the service in between? It has to be one or the other; LU or mainline.

2. The tracks will be entirely underground until it reaches to Leytonstone where it meets the Central Line. It could wait until ATO trains come or it can stop at Stratford, wait for another driver then proceeds.

3. Stratford station has its own walkway to the underground tunnels in the Bakerloo Line.

4. All Central line trains will stop at Stratford then.

OK, but I still don't think the track-share, nor the extension in general, is that good an idea. Sounds like it could become quite expensive, and for what gain? To Stratford it seems just like a parallel of the high-frequency Jubilee, and as I said before, the Docklands are getting another railway link in the form of Crossrail. I'd stick with sending the Bakerloo south as has been proposed.

 

[lancededcena]

This is your plan. Fine, but what will happen to the existing OHLE, as it can not easily co-exist with 4th rail as I understand it. My concern is that you state in your OP that the Bakerloo will only provide the 'Rominster' a "limited service (peak time)". What will provide the service in between? It has to be one or the other; LU or mainline.



OK, but I still don't think the track-share, nor the extension in general, is that good an idea. Sounds like it could become quite expensive, and for what gain? To Stratford it seems just like a parallel of the high-frequency Jubilee, and as I said before, the Docklands are getting another railway link in the form of Crossrail. I'd stick with sending the Bakerloo south as has been proposed.

Ok then, no track share for the Bakerloo Line and Central Line. But it will still be entirely underground. There is no Romford to Upminster line because this is taking too much and the Leytonstone to Romford section will be closed on Sundays and Bank Holidays.

 

[jopsuk]

from E&C to Stratford you're basically proposing a line roughly parallel to the Jubilee extension- except less useful (eg not serving the busy part of Docklands, with some very odd station seperation (Bromley by Bow AND Devons Road?).

The other parts of it are also essentially service duiplication in an area already well served and about to become better served.

The idea of extending the Bakerloo south to Hayes is that it'll help serve an area currently poorly served (eg south of the Old Kent Road) and give outer parts a better connection to central London.

It's also better, where possible, to keep tube lines as self contained units. .

 

[joeykins82]

The only sensible proposal for extending the Bakerloo line is for it to take over the Hayes branch. Tunnels extended from E&C to new underground platforms at Lewisham, then surfacing where Ladywell junction is (the links from Lewisham and the South East Mainline to the Hayes branch presumably lifted during conversion to LU operation). This frees up several paths in to Charing Cross and Cannon Street which is more useful than throwing an unnecessary amount of capacity towards Romford

 

[D365]

Following on from jopsuk, fantasy LU/TfL thread? If we're being outrageous, Abbey Line extended under St. Albans to the MML station and on to Hatfield and beyond!

 

[lancededcena]

Leave the south alone, in the first post I said What if it was extended to the East rather than the South.

 

[JamesRowden]

Leave the south alone, in the first post I said What if it was extended to the East rather than the South.

It has been. The Jubilee was originally part of the Bakerloo.

 

[joeykins82]

And what we're saying is that it makes no sense for the Bakerloo to expand Eastwards. Crossrail will nicely solve the capacity problems west of Stratford and provide a turn up and go service everywhere between Shenfield & Liverpool Street. The Central Line is effectively turn up and go everywhere except the Woodford-Hainault section. South-East london needs the regeneration effect that a tube extension would bring and the capacity boost more than the M11/A12 corridor