My ideas for: M25 rail network and Heathrow rail terminal

[nanagrampy]

Hi all,

I know this sort of thing will never happen but I think that a railway line pretty much following the M25 would be a good idea.

There could be links to so many railway lines, meaning people only have to change once from London to get to so many different places. It could also be connected to other lines, so if there is a problem on a line, then the trains could switch to a different London line using the M25 line.

You could then link the line up to Heathrow, and build a Heathrow terminal 6. This would be a huge airport like terminal with links to the M25 line, HS2, Crossrail, Heathrow Express, the Piccadily line and most importantly HS1 services. This could be done by using a high speed line around the M25 and then having a link line along the M26 and across some countryside to the HS1 line at the M20. You could have some European services terminating at Heathrow instead of central London. And as more European destinations are being added, it would be an alternative to flying, but still from the airport. By doing this, you free up airspace at Heathrow and encourage the use of rail.

So basically, why not build a (maybe 6 track?) railway line around the M25 providing high speed rail, local connections and train diversions.

I am sure you will all have views on this which I will be very interested in hearing.

PS. I am a beginner to RailUK so apologies if my post is a bit unclear.

 

[ntg]

One immediate problems would be the distinct lack of an M25 shaped brownfield site on which to build a railway. Another is the lack of money to build it. And a third would be the fact that a train cannot just switch to another line as the commuter lines out of London are some of the most heavily conjested lines on Earth - there is simply not enough room for the WCML to pick up the slack if Thameslink decides to break.

I think most of the benefits of what you propose could be achieved through some more reasonable measures like a spur from HS2 to Heathrow with a east facing curve allowing trains from HS1 to terminate in Heathrow, and some small local railways in North London to allow commuters to move between the radial lines like the much-campigned for North and West London Light Railway.

 

[JGR]

Having a junction with each of the mainlines the M25 crosses would require a large number of expensive and land-hungry 4-way junctions for it to be any use as a diversionary route. These would probably have to be at least partially grade-separated, which works out as ££££!!!!

It's probably be more realistic to just improve interconnections between the radial routes and London Overground.

 

[The Ham]

It's probably be more realistic to just improve interconnections between the radial routes and London Overground.

Like the proposed East West railway, which will enable travel from Bedford to Gatwick by going via Oxford & Reading and then along the North Downs line. Add to that the proposal to run trains from Reading to Heathrow and with a few changes you could between most of the mainlines and a few of the London Airports without having to go into London.

 

[NSE]

I wouldn't like to see the cost of a six track tunnel under the Thames. Sides, assuming you're working with the idea that there would be stations roughly at the junctions, so passengers could come in on the WCML then get off at a station near the M25 and follow the M25 line round to say the SWML and then trot off down to Southampton without having to go into London. However, I don't really see Virgin or EC etc wanting to stop their trains again, especially with EC stopping at Stevenage and Virgin at Watford which are close by.

But again, thats if this line gets built. Which I'm afraid it wont.

 

[philjo]

It would be expensive to build an interchange with ECML as the ECML is in Potters Bar tunnel when it passes under the M25.
also now the M25 is widened in many cases is doesn't have any suitbale adjoining land.
Much better to extend the East-west route to link via existing mianine interchanges at Luton & Stevenage etc, and as that is further out allows more traffic to avoid the London area altogether, providing more capacity for local services into London.

 

[Haydn1971]

Personally, if I was in the market to spend an estimated £60-80Bn on running six tracks around London - About 200km length - I'd rather invest it in building Crossrail 2, 3 & 4 where ever 3 & 4 would go is another debate !

 

[LE Greys]

A bit of an aside, but I've investigated the idea of rail-air freight a few times, and come to the general conclusion that it's possible, but a little difficult. The idea would be to use Unit Load Devices (otherwise known as airline luggage containers) travelling in a modern equivalent of a GUV at speeds of up to 125 mph for time-critical goods, parcels and mail. Essentially, it would blend the former Rail Express Systems, TGV Le Poste and air cargo. I reckon it would work, but the problem would be building up the traffic in the first place.

It would be expensive to build an interchange with ECML as the ECML is in Potters Bar tunnel when it passes under the M25.
also now the M25 is widened in many cases is doesn't have any suitbale adjoining land.
Much better to extend the East-west route to link via existing mianine interchanges at Luton & Stevenage etc, and as that is further out allows more traffic to avoid the London area altogether, providing more capacity for local services into London.

I'd back you on that one! I often complain about the lack of connections between the main lines near London, and doing something about it would be an excellent idea. The southern compliment of this is the North Downs Line, plus Redhill-Tonbridge, and connecting the two more effectively would help, plus electrification of the former.

 

[nanagrampy]

OK, it looks like it's a no all round then. Better just to upgrade the services we have.

I do think however building a rail terminal at Heathrow would be a good idea and make it easier to catch the train. It would also free up airspace for other flights, which would please the government.

But I agree the money could be spent in other ways: perhaps work to try to reduce rail fares.

 

[JamesRowden]

OK, it looks like it's a no all round then. Better just to upgrade the services we have.

The southern compliment of this is the North Downs Line, plus Redhill-Tonbridge, and connecting the two more effectively would help, plus electrification of the former.

There is also the Maidstone West line from Tonbridge which if you continued along past Strood would lead to Dartford. With the introduction of East West rail there will be a loop around London from Bedford via Guildford to Dartford.

At the moment someone wanting to go by train from North Kent to the far East of London or Essex has to go all the way to Stratford and back out again. Traveline states that it takes over an hour by public transport to get from one side of the Thames to the other (Northfleet to Rainham (London)). One idea I have to solve this problem is to have HS1 platforms at Rainham with a new local line from Upminster and to extend the Romford-Upminster services to Rainham.

Another solution would be to make it possible for orbital services to use the section of HS1 that goes under the Thames with a service every 30 minutes for example. The trains could then continue either on an orbital route (using my new line idea to Upminster) or to Central London (might also be usefull as a diversionary route during Engineering Works).

I think that building a second rail crossing across the Thames (for local servcies) around Dartford might be too expensive a project for the gains at the momment but maybe it would be usefull in the long term.

 

[Zoe]

One idea I have to solve this problem is to have HS1 platforms at Rainham with a new local line from Upminster and to extend the Romford-Upminster services to Rainham.

That would be quite expensive as the District line is in the way. Also how are you going to get from Upminster to Rainham? Reverse at Grays?

 

[JamesRowden]

That would be quite expensive as the District line is in the way. Also how are you going to get from Upminster to Rainham? Reverse at Grays?

I am proposing a new line that would run just inside of the M25 and would approach Rainham and Upminster from the East.

I think that points could be built from what is presently a bay platform at the north of Upminster station (used by Romford services) across the tracks the Distrct line trains use to get to their depot because the District Line trains use 4th rail and my proposed services will use Overhead.

 

[Zoe]

I think that points could be built from what is presently a bay platform at the north of Upminster station (used by Romford services) across the tracks the Distrct line trains use to get to their depot because the District Line trains use 4th rail and my proposed services will use Overhead.

I'm not sure if LUL would be entirely happy about having NR trains crossing the access road to the depot on the flat considering that previously there has been a policy of segregation.

 

[mr_jrt]

I know this sort of thing will never happen but I think that a railway line pretty much following the M25 would be a good idea.

My old ideas on a similar thread were for a mostly two-track line (maybe loops at stations?) using disused alignments. Bit tenious in places...but there you go.

That would be quite expensive as the District line is in the way. Also how are you going to get from Upminster to Rainham? Reverse at Grays?

There should be ample room for a diveunder.

 

[JamesRowden]

I just realised that there already is a line around there. The new line would therefore only need to be built along beside the A13 from Ockendon to Rainham. Although there would be several more important roads to cross than with my original idea.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hi all,

I know this sort of thing will never happen but I think that a railway line pretty much following the M25 would be a good idea.

There could be links to so many railway lines, meaning people only have to change once from London to get to so many different places. It could also be connected to other lines, so if there is a problem on a line, then the trains could switch to a different London line using the M25 line.

To add to the other objections, it seems to me that using an orbital railway for interchanges round London wouldn't particularly benefit passengers compared to just crossing between London terminals - given that most long distance trains get from the point where they fly past the M25 to the London terminals quite quickly(I think Southern and Southeastern are possibly the main exceptions to that).

What might be more useful (though also probably so expensive that it's not going to happen for a loooooooooooooong time) would be an orbital railway further in, just inside London. Something like the distance out of Finchley-Harrow-Heathrow-Kingston-etc. That wouldn't help long distance travellers at all but would transform a lot of travel within London by allowing convenient orbital journeys to a huge number of places where good rail travel only currently exists for radial travel into the centre of London.

(Though I doubt such a line would go down too well with the large Northern conurbations who are already far less well served for railways than London is ).

 

[mr_jrt]

To add to the other objections, it seems to me that using an orbital railway for interchanges round London wouldn't particularly benefit passengers compared to just crossing between London terminals - given that most long distance trains get from the point where they fly past the M25 to the London terminals quite quickly(I think Southern and Southeastern are possibly the main exceptions to that).

I dunno. Would have been a godsend on my old commute. I had to travel from the M25 to Euston, then back out again on the ECML to Cambridge. Anything that relieves the London terminals (and the zone 1 fares!) would be *very* useful.

Giving passengers contraflow options is also vital in making best use of available capacity. Admittedly I was travelling from Watford, but were I travelling from Harrow then for all those rammed LM trains heading south in the mornings the same amount obviously come back out, usually nearly empty.

Perhaps once HS2 opens there would be more of an argument for stopping the fast line expresses at any M25-esque interchanges. I certainly imagine that will be the case at Watford.

 

[HSTEd]

Any future High Speed lines could have OOC style stations at or near the M25.

Then you can turn them into the worlds largest park and ride.

HS Great Western would have its first stop at Heathrow obviously.... 8 minute travel time or something silly like that, 18 trains per hour.
Then you replace all those silly low rise car parks at Heathrow with American style 13 level monsters or German-derived automated parking racks.

In the far future a two track orbital HS railway around London is probably a neccesity though, but I am not sure how close in it would actually have to be...... since you can eat up a kilometre in 11 seconds at 320kph.

 

[The Ham]

I dunno. Would have been a godsend on my old commute. I had to travel from the M25 to Euston, then back out again on the ECML to Cambridge. Anything that relieves the London terminals (and the zone 1 fares!) would be *very* useful.

Giving passengers contraflow options is also vital in making best use of available capacity. Admittedly I was travelling from Watford, but were I travelling from Harrow then for all those rammed LM trains heading south in the mornings the same amount obviously come back out, usually nearly empty.

Perhaps once HS2 opens there would be more of an argument for stopping the fast line expresses at any M25-esque interchanges. I certainly imagine that will be the case at Watford.

As has been said before there is already a route around much of London a little further out than the M25 and although there are no current dates when the section will reopen that would have helped your old commute it is clearly better to do that than build a whole new line near the M25.

For details of the options for the route to link the WCML, MML, ECML and the line to Cambridge see the map on the east west rail website:
http://eastwestrail.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/East-West-Rail-Central-Section.pdf

If it was open at the time of your old commute you could have travelled on the near empty trains out of London to Milton Keynes and then change for a train to Cambridge.

Although there is a chance that this would have taken longer than going into London & back out again (given Watford to Bedford is 1.5hours - although that is with a 15 min change time) it would have meant that there was a much higher chance of having a seat for the whole time.

Also although HS2 will help with passenger loadings at Watford the same isn't true of the line to Cambridge and with only fairly small settlements near the M25 as the trains to Cambridge cross it, there is little chance that such a route would be well served.

 

[jopsuk]

The French are roughly constructing something along these lines for Paris, connecting LGV. It started with LGV Interconnexion Est, but it now goes all the way round to Massy on LGV Atlantique.

Very few stations- it is more designed to distribute through trains to provide TGV services that miss Paris. Eurostars to Provence and the Alps use it and the Eurodisney services terminate on it at Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy

 

[HSTEd]

You could also use it during engineering works on the inner approach tracks to run a reduced service to other termini.

You couldn't run your full service, but it would be a useful secondary effect.

It also means that any platform capacity at any terminus is almost as good as any other, since if the route followed the M25 at 320kph you could traverse even 180 degrees around london in something on order of 20 minutes.

 

[mr_jrt]

As has been said before there is already a route around much of London a little further out than the M25 and although there are no current dates when the section will reopen that would have helped your old commute it is clearly better to do that than build a whole new line near the M25.

In my vision, it's mostly more of a reopening, really. St. Albans to Hatfield, Hatfield to Hertford, etc. You'd need new build to fill in the gaps that never managed to get that far at the time (i.e. Rickmansworth to Uxbridge), and tunnel for those that are too far gone (i.e. Uxbridge to Heathrow), but I think there would be sufficient regional demand for the modest project of the core section of Rickmansworth to Hatfield to be worthwhile. Have Hatfield to Broxbourne as a 2nd phase, and Rickmansworth to Heathrow as the final phase. If you can give one-change rail access to Heathrow to everyone across the arc of west of London to North East of London without having to go through zone 1...well.

For details of the options for the route to link the WCML, MML, ECML and the line to Cambridge see the map on the east west rail website:
http://eastwestrail.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/East-West-Rail-Central-Section.pdf

If it was open at the time of your old commute you could have travelled on the near empty trains out of London to Milton Keynes and then change for a train to Cambridge.

Thanks...I've been following EWR for a looong time. I disagree with their plans for the central section (I think a new alignment from north of Bedford Midland to St. Neots then new build to Cambridge is the better option), but aside from that I'm with them all the way. The problem with the EWR route for my old commute is that Bletchley is simply too far in the opposite direction! Ideally I'd want to be getting a bus to Watford, a train to Hatfield, then joining a semi-fast service to Cambridge from there.

Although there is a chance that this would have taken longer than going into London & back out again (given Watford to Bedford is 1.5hours - although that is with a 15 min change time) it would have meant that there was a much higher chance of having a seat for the whole time.

That's still a saving, fare-wise, tbh. The journey was ~2 hours door to door: Bus ~7:00, Watford ~7:30, Euston ~7:50 KX ~8:15, CBG ~9:00. I had to stand on the WCML, but on the ECML I always got a seat (or 4!) as I was contraflow. Luckily, that was the bulk of the trip.

Also although HS2 will help with passenger loadings at Watford the same isn't true of the line to Cambridge and with only fairly small settlements near the M25 as the trains to Cambridge cross it, there is little chance that such a route would be well served.

Well, there were proposals a few years back for a park and ride on the ECML at just that point actually...and when phase 2 of HS2 opens it'll abstract the LDHS expresses as those north of York and to Leeds will be running via HS2 instead. So perhaps not so clear cut

 

[Andyjs247]

The French never built an M25-equivalent; the Boulevard Périphérique is perhaps more like the North Circular but the dual carriageway does completely encircle the city. It roughly divides the original city of Paris from the newer suburbs.

The French are roughly constructing something along these lines for Paris, connecting LGV. It started with LGV Interconnexion Est, but it now goes all the way round to Massy on LGV Atlantique.

Very few stations- it is more designed to distribute through trains to provide TGV services that miss Paris. Eurostars to Provence and the Alps use it and the Eurodisney services terminate on it at Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy

The TGV stations at Roissy Charles de Gaulle Airport, Marne-la-Vallée and Massy are also linked into the RER (regional express network, roughly equivalent to Thameslink or Crossrail) which provides a connection into central Paris. Also being a high speed route it provides all the connectivity without completely encircling Paris. TGVs serve places such as Marseille, Lyon, Avignon in the south and south east; Bordeaux, Rennes, Nantes in the west and south west via TGV Atlantique and more recently Strasbourg via LGV Est. TGV services run to Lille via LGV Nord plus Eurostar to London and Thalys to Brussels and Amsterdam.

I took the Eurodisney service to Marne-la-Vallée a couple of weeks ago. One thing I did notice about LGV Interconnexion Est is how relatively rural the countryside was even fairly close to Paris. In the UK you have to get some way from London (beyond the Chiltern escarpment for example) before the countryside actually begins to feel rural. Closer to London the landscape seems rather "manicured" even if not actually built up.

The French just get on and do things where we argue about it for decades. Our population density is higher than France so its more difficult for us to build anything without upsetting someone, somewhere though.

 

[JGR]

If you're not actually starting on a TGV service which uses one of the Paris bypass LGV lines you would probably not be inclined to change on to it for the purposes of going round Paris.

There (partially) still is a more inner line somewhat similar to that the OP proposed circumnavigating Paris. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_de_Grande_Ceinture Of which some is freight, some is open to passengers (bits of RER C and the St Nom la Bretèche line), and some is abandoned (my old cycling haunt in la Forêt de St Germain).

Le Boulevard Périphérique is a traffic nightmare, that said, Paris does have equivalents to the M25 in the A86, which is slightly less of a traffic nightmare, and the Francilienne, whenever that gets built.

The UK is more capital-centric than France, so I'm not surprised that French have put considerably more effort into Paris orbital links than the UK has with London.

 

[GodAtum]

Could you build some kind of maglev or tramway above the motorway?

 

[JGR]

Could you build some kind of maglev or tramway above the motorway?

That might cost you a few extra pennies, to put it mildly...

 

[The Ham]

Could you build some kind of maglev or tramway above the motorway?

It would be possible, so would building a high speed line between Lands End and John O'Groats. However given a classic railway would not likely be heavily used it is unlikely to be built.

 

[HSTEd]

I dunno, Land's End to John O' Groats would pick up extra traffic compared to a classic line :P

Cornwall would be London Commuter country and it would make Wick Edinburgh/Glasgow commuter country.