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Narrow Gauge Trams

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GardenRail

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Traditionally, narrow gauge is well known for saving costs, with regards building the infrastructure. When new systems are being developed, planned or brainstormed, is Narrow Gauge ever considered in this country? We do not currently have any narrow gauge trams here, but why? Its not as if they link into the national railway network, other than Sheffield and Manchester with physical track connections.
 
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Arkeeos

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Does narrow gauge actually save costs? You're still disrupting the street, you cant use the wider variety of stuff that is made for standard gauge. and modern tram building uses prefabricated segments now, which I imagine would narrow the theoretical cost saving down even more?
 

DanNCL

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The standard tram products (Citadis, Avenio, TINA etc) are all offered on a variety of track gauges and level boarding can be provided for narrow gauge trams. That said, it probably doesn't save enough money vs standard gauge to make it worthwhile.

Narrow gauge trams have their use, mainly on networks where a tighter than normal curve radius is required such as in Lisbon. The other use is in cities where narrow gauge networks already exist. Stuttgart converted their narrow gauge tram network into a standard gauge Stadtbahn network at significant expense over a 20 year period, and the fact that few other cities have followed suit is probably a good indicator as to how successful that project really was.
 

stuu

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Several cities in Spain have built new tram systems using metre gauge so it is done, the trams are no different in size to standard guage ones. They do have a lot of metre gauge railways though which must be a factor. We don't have any so there would be issues with things like construction equipment etc so probably would be more trouble than it's worth
 

edwin_m

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Standard gauge trams can cope with curves down to 15m or so radius if the vehicles are suitably designed, so the geometry has to be pretty extreme to justify a narrow gauge. There's also a greater overturning risk, so speeds on curves may be less.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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The VLR project in Coventry looks to be the way forward to cut costs - light trackwork and battery operated. The UK did have narrow gauge networks, which caused problems in W Yorks - 3ft 6in in Halifax, 4ft in Bradford and Std in Leeds!
 

zwk500

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Traditionally, narrow gauge is well known for saving costs, with regards building the infrastructure. When new systems are being developed, planned or brainstormed, is Narrow Gauge ever considered in this country? We do not currently have any narrow gauge trams here, but why? Its not as if they link into the national railway network, other than Sheffield and Manchester with physical track connections.
Narrow gauge was primarily able to save costs by reducing the amount of manual labour required. But now you have power excavators the benefits of being able to build lower standard infrastructure are outweighed by the operational constraints they then place on the network. When you are laying tracks through city streets narrow gauge is much less beneficial as the streets are already wide enough for standard gauge vehicles and you are doing the same amount of labour to dig up roads and lay tracks.
Standardisation is more important nowadays for saving cost than lowering standards.
 

geoffk

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I can't imagine many existing systems would consider gauge change, costs a fortune for very little benefit.
Most Swiss systems are metre gauge and have been modernised. No doubt the gauge helps with negotiating narrow streets.
 

Taunton

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No narrow gauge systems already existing in the UK is a good starting reason. The BART system in the USA, built late 1960s, considered all aspects from some supposedly visionary theoretical engineers, and came up with a 5'6" gauge. Only when built did they notice (although train buffs' magazines had commented long previously) that none of the USA track maintenance contractors had any such gauge equipment, tools, etc, so everything had to be bought specifically, and indeed often custom manufactured.

Narrow gauge allows sharper curves, although at limited speed. Historically such cars often were only wide enough for 2+1, or even 1+1 seating, rather than 2+2 seating that UK buses have always managed. Have wider cars and you need more throwover room on curves, and start to lose any narrow gauge benefit. Narrow gauge cars are an advantage in places like old Lisbon, which UK buses would find challenging, but there aren't many such in realistic UK system proposals, most of which seem to require absorbing substantial amounts of existing community roadspace for their own purposes.

One separate development has been the arrival of low floor cars, with separately suspended wheels rather than axles to allow the low level through gangway, which seem incapable of being allowed to handle curves at much more than walking speed. This aspect was quite overlooked, for example, in the development of the Edinburgh Tram, whose final section to the airport through open country is a series of right-angle turns following the established field boundaries, which wrecks the speed performance not only there but elsewhere else on the system (bear in mind the initial Edinburgh Tram contract was given to a German contractor because they "knew" trams - but seemingly not this bit). Now if that was done to metre gauge rather than standard, I imagine the speeds on sharp turns would be even less.

The speed differential in for example Prague, which now has both 'classic' Tatra bogie trams, and new 'low floor' cars, is significant, I would guess to the extent of requiring extra cars to maintain the same headway. The same might be true if a UK system were built narrow gauge.
 

edwin_m

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One separate development has been the arrival of low floor cars, with separately suspended wheels rather than axles to allow the low level through gangway, which seem incapable of being allowed to handle curves at much more than walking speed. This aspect was quite overlooked, for example, in the development of the Edinburgh Tram, whose final section to the airport through open country is a series of right-angle turns following the established field boundaries, which wrecks the speed performance not only there but elsewhere else on the system (bear in mind the initial Edinburgh Tram contract was given to a German contractor because they "knew" trams - but seemingly not this bit). Now if that was done to metre gauge rather than standard, I imagine the speeds on sharp turns would be even less.

The speed differential in for example Prague, which now has both 'classic' Tatra bogie trams, and new 'low floor' cars, is significant, I would guess to the extent of requiring extra cars to maintain the same headway. The same might be true if a UK system were built narrow gauge.
This is probably related to transition curves or the lack of them, rather than track gauge. A traditional bogie tram creates a "virtual transition" as it starts to turn when the first bogie hits the curve and the rate of rotation increases gradually until the second bogie is also on the curve. In the wheeled parts of the newer multi-section trams, the wheels are moreorless rigidly attached to the body section above, so the rate of rotation builds up over the much shorter distance between the two axles. This creates much more of a lateral lurch for passengers in those sections, particularly evident at the very rear of a tram with no cab at that end. This issue doesn't arise if the track is designed with a transition curve, where the radius changes over distance instead of abruptly like a train set. But that might not always be possible in a confined urban setting.

On a narrow gauge the curve speed might be lower anyway, for all vehicle types due to greater risk of overturning. So the speed difference between bogie trams and newer multi-section designs may be less or indeed nothing.
 

plugwash

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We do not currently have any narrow gauge trams here,
Well it depends a bit on how exactly one defines "tramway" and how exactly one defines "here" but there are a few possible contenders.

* Great Orme Tramway
* Seaton Tramway
* Manx Electric Railway
* Shipley Glen Tramway

None of them seem to be serious public transport projects though, and it's arguable if many of them are actually tramways.
 

MisterSheeps

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The BART system in the USA, built late 1960s, considered all aspects from some supposedly visionary theoretical engineers, and came up with a 5'6" gauge
I have read that the BART gauge was chosen to be deliberately not 4ft 8½ on the insistence of the local railway networks, who were adamant they did not ever want it connected to them.
 

edwin_m

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Well it depends a bit on how exactly one defines "tramway" and how exactly one defines "here" but there are a few possible contenders.

* Great Orme Tramway
* Seaton Tramway
* Manx Electric Railway
* Shipley Glen Tramway

None of them seem to be serious public transport projects though, and it's arguable if many of them are actually tramways.
The Great Orme one runs in part on public highway so is treated as a tramway - it's described as such in a RAIB report on an accident there.
The BART system in the USA, built late 1960s, considered all aspects from some supposedly visionary theoretical engineers, and came up with a 5'6" gauge.
The same engineers failed to appreciate the merits of the coned wheel, so I also tend to doubt their judgment on the question of gauge.
 

southern442

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Has anyone yet mentioned the possible benefit of narrow-gauge (or simply a smaller loading gauge) meaning that less space is required for partially/fully segregated running?
 

edwin_m

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Has anyone yet mentioned the possible benefit of narrow-gauge (or simply a smaller loading gauge) meaning that less space is required for partially/fully segregated running?
That depends only on the vehicle width, not the track. And a narrower vehicle is less space-efficient, costing about the same as a normal width vehicle of the same length, but carrying fewer people.
 

Gostav

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For really narrow gauge - 762mm, there was an extreme example in Japan: 花巻電鉄 Hanamaki Electric Railway, which operated narrow-body trams: 1620mm width of the body! This was due to the fact that the tramway was on narrow roads.

Such extreme example will greatly restrict the transportation capacity of the system. The truth is that meter gauge doesn't save much money - unless a narrower gauge is used like 762mm and l believe that very few manufacturers in today can make trams for such narrow gauge track.
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southern442

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That depends only on the vehicle width, not the track. And a narrower vehicle is less space-efficient, costing about the same as a normal width vehicle of the same length, but carrying fewer people.
This is true, however in some circumstances it might make a tramway viable from a time/efficiency perspective, in some edge case situations where a full-sized tram would have to fully mingle with traffic.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Well it depends a bit on how exactly one defines "tramway" and how exactly one defines "here" but there are a few possible contenders.

* Great Orme Tramway
* Seaton Tramway
* Manx Electric Railway
* Shipley Glen Tramway

None of them seem to be serious public transport projects though, and it's arguable if many of them are actually tramways.
Whilst Shipley Glen calls itself a tramway, it doesn't really qualify as one by any sensible metric. It's basically a very shallow funicular railway.
 

341o2

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Would Volk's Electric Railway be another contender?
 

plugwash

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Would Volk's Electric Railway be another contender?
It

* Doesn't call itself a tramway,
* Doesn't have street running
* Uses a power system that would not be considered appropriate for street running.

OTOH I would agree that the vehicles are reminiscent of oldschool tram cars.
 

Vespa

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The main benefit of standard gauge tramway is standardised equipment and it opens the possibility of through running if connected to another tramway system and future tramtrain projects, it keeps your options open.

There's an example of Halifax 3ft 6ins Bradford 4ft and Leeds 4ft 8 1/2ins is a case in point, neither system is able to run through to the other, causing the inconvenience of having to get off and walk to the other tram.

I think I've seen a photo of a tram terminus with two system tram tracks separated a few feets apart.
 

etr221

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The main benefit of standard gauge tramway is standardised equipment and it opens the possibility of through running if connected to another tramway system and future tramtrain projects, it keeps your options open.

There's an example of Halifax 3ft 6ins Bradford 4ft and Leeds 4ft 8 1/2ins is a case in point, neither system is able to run through to the other, causing the inconvenience of having to get off and walk to the other tram.

I think I've seen a photo of a tram terminus with two system tram tracks separated a few feets apart.
The West Riding example is a case of the different towns (municipalities) choosing different guages for their own reasons, and not seeing any reason (when choosing, or later) for through running. (But I seem to recall that there was an experiment with variable gauge tram...)

Having the same gauge didn't necessarily lead to systems linking up and having through running. Or sometimes it took decades to achieve... refer to 'Great British Tramway Networks' for details...

On the other hand, the (old) West Midlands network was all 3'-6" - but how much through running there was, I don't recall.

The other big traditional tramway network that was (just) narrow gauge was Glasgow (etc), which was 4'-7¾" - to permit operation of mainline goods wagons over it, by flange running.

But nowadays, I don't think there's any advantage in going for other than standard guage, unless there are specific reasons.
 

LYRobert

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Burnley, Colne and Nelson was four foot gauge, although the original line (steam trams) was laid down as standard guage. The guage was altered when the line was electified and new branches were laid out into the suburbs.
 
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Dr Hoo

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I’ve heard it said that the ‘new’ West Highland Railway link across and slightly along the road to enter Porthmadog station is legally a ‘tramway’.
 

zwk500

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I’ve heard it said that the ‘new’ West Highland Railway link across and slightly along the road to enter Porthmadog station is legally a ‘tramway’.
Really? It's signed as a level crossing.
 

52290

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I remember when I was in Karl Marx Stadt in 1973 there were both standard and metre gauge trams.
 
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