National Fares Manual - some questions

[BRX]

I'm currently working on making some complaints - to various bodies - about the recent so-called "fares simplification".

In putting this together it's obviously important that any information I use is accurate. I can check current fares and validities (to some extent at least) on the NRE website, but I could do with being able to check (and compare) these for tickets under the terms that applied previous to both the AP fare "simplification" and the walk-up fare "simplification".

My questions are:

What document applied immediately before the recent changes? - I see a lot of references to NFM98 and this seems to be the one linked to on the NRE website:

http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/manuals.html#nfm

(Although presumably it shouldn't really be there any more?)

The link there misses out sections B and C which presumably are the ones with the actual fares in them.

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of the sections B and C that applied immediately previous to the "simplification" changes?

Thanks.

 

[dan_atki]

The slightly newer NFM99 was the one that applied directly before the so called 'simplification' which ran from May to September.

ATOC never allowed publication of sections B and C to the general public so they were never put in public areas (and if they were even uploaded to the ATOC site they were password protected).

NFM98 was the actual last one to be in print before 'electronicisation' (ticket offices no longer had a use for them after APTIS had gone and hardly anyone bought them off of TSOs site so a great waste was made in printing them) and was the last one to have a fully comprehensive set of links to the electronic version.

With NFM99 came the advent of the Fares and Retail Publications Portal for staff to be able to access necessary parts of the fares manuals (although I am led to believe even in the password protected site that sections B and C did not exist but instead had a form similar to the online ticketing sites albeit with slightly more information provided to staff in search results), retail manuals, rail link manuals, and ticket checking handbooks. ATOC did put some sections of NFM99 online publicly but not as many as had previously been published (all of NFM98 apart from the fares appeared but only about a fifth of NFM99 was ever put up) so I assume that is why NRE still, incorrectly, links to NFM98.

Afraid it is bad news as I think unless you can track down a paper copy of NFM98 (not much difference between that and NFM99) then you'd be unable to get the old fares you want. As a start, try contacting TSO and seeing if they have any left over (you will only want one of the seven regions though I'd imagine and each is about the size of a telephone directory), failing that (and it depends how serious you are about getting a copy) try sending a letter to the customer services department of your local TOC to see if their stations have any left over (under APTIS at least stations were required to keep manuals for a year in case of refunds on Annual seasons), or even ATOC and see what happens.

Failing that you can rewind a year (so fares are out of date so will probably not be all that use to you but will still show restrictions) and download Avantix Traveller (an executable Windows program that has all the fares in it) for NFM95 (which ran January to May 2007 IIRC), along with the new one for NFM01 - links to the site to get these are elsewhere in this board .

 

[BRX]

Thanks very much for all that, dan_atki.

The numbers "98" etc. don't refer to the year of publication, then. That clears up one of the things that was confusing me.

To summarise:

NFM95: Jan - May 2007

NFM98: ??? - May 2008; last one to have paper copy
NFM99: May - Sept 2008; viewable through web portal only

NFM01: Current; first one to apply since walk-up fares "simplification"; viewable through Windows app only

Have I got that right?

Unfortunately I'm on a Mac so those windows applications aren't much good to me. Maybe I can track down a paper copy of NFM98 but it doesn't sound like it'll be too easy - especially if parts B and C were not supposed to be available to the public, then I can't imagine anyone being too inclined to give them to me now.

 

[dan_atki]

No problem!

No, the numbers are more the document number than the year they apply to, running in sequence.

Fares Manuals used to always get updated at each of the fares reviews in January, May, and September so NFM96 would be May-Sept 07, NFM97 Sept 07-Jan 08, NFM98 Jan-May 08 etc. NFM00 never existed (and it would seem the numbers are limited to two digits) so NFM01 runs Sept 08-Jan 09, then NFM02 until May next year and so on.

NFM01 would also be on the FRPP for rail employees to view, but since the 'electronicisation' (my new word ), some members of the public still wanted something so ATOC finally gave in and allowed sale of Avantix Traveller, which is now available to download free. Sadly, whilst Avantix Traveller is very good for checking fares and validities, it isn't good for much else (like the fares manuals were). PDFs of NFM01 must surely exist but ATOC aren't giving us the cake and letting us eat it put simply as they haven't uploaded it to the public section of their site.

Of course, this has many implications - one such one is a list of validity codes which used to appear in section E of the fares manual, and price of rail rovers and rangers in section G, even the introduction in section A was of use to people. ATOC will surely say that such information is available elsewhere on their or other sites so they have no need to publish it... I also think it would be naive to believe that sections B and C aren't still produced like they used to be (just not available to anyone) and if that is the case, then with the release of Avantix Traveller now, I see absolutely no reason for them not putting up the entire fares manuals for the public to see and consult.

Strictly speaking, the public could get hold of sections B and C if they were to purchase each of the manuals (at £15 each) from The Stationery Office, so it leads me to believe ATOC did not want the information about fares (generally rather than specific enquiries which can be done on journey planners) available for free. Still, now NFM98 has expired and arguably the information in it is out of date (not totally true, because the vast majority of fares go unchanged January to January in a normal year, so having NFM95 and NFM97 say would be pretty much the same for the different ends of 2007, so it would be fair to assume NFM98 and NFM01 (remember, NFM00 doesn't exist) should be the same for the different ends of 2008 ) you might be able to get one of the many spare copies that must be laying around (if you don't try you don't know ).

We both know that this year they won't be almost the same though because of 'simplification'. The problem you'd then have is establishing what actually has gone on because many TOCs will have used the September fares review (which happens every year) to make (more) changes this year which the public would see as a result of 'simplification'. Call that what you want (I have words in mind) but it is deemed as 'legal'. It would have been better if the 'simplification' was to occur at a time other than when a fare review was taking place because then it'd be plain what has happened then - only problem is that then the public would see what had really gone on...

 

[BRX]

Hmm... yes, well, the issue of burying fare increases amongst the changes to the ticket types is a whole other can of worms.

What I'm looking to demonstrate in this instance (amongst other things) is that for a journey from X to Y, there is not a significantly simpler or smaller range of walk-up ticket options now than there was pre-September. It's difficult to do that without the old Fares Manual to hand.

I'm wondering whether ATOC could be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Perhaps not because it's not really a public body as such.

 

[devon_metro]

There is a 'Previous NFMs' section on the FRPP website

 

[glynn80]

BRX if you could PM me I believe I could help you greatly as I am making similar complaints to yourself to the ORR.

I was one of those who contacted RSP and had advance knowledge of the fact they were releasing the Avantix Traveller CD to the public (posted to uk.railway), had they not told me this was being released I would of pursued my complaint the NFM was no longer in the public domain as it had been. I agree with dan_atki that this information should be in the public domain. ATOC unfortunately are not subject to the FOI as are not a government body but a Ltd. company with the TOCs all being members (Open Access operators are Affilliate members).

If you PM me with your questions I may have answers and if not direct you to the relevant people within the ORR or the DfT who you need to contact. I also have access to NFM 99 which may be of use to you in your complaint so any questions you have about the content of NFM 99 also address those in your PM.

 

[BRX]

glynn80, I will PM you.